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[–]Sybles[S] [score hidden]

This is exactly the kind of stereotype libertarians and conservatives don't need.

[–]MDZX [score hidden]

Which part? Wanting free stuff from the government or the racism that infects a large part of the militia and far right movements?

[–]Sybles[S] [score hidden]

Who holds the stereotype that libertarians want "free stuff from the government?"

The joke about many conservatives is that they say they like small government, but hold positions like "Get the government out of my Medicare!" and will go ballistic for trying to eliminate farm subsidies.

As for the racism part, aside from group of commenters far in the minority of r/libertarian, I have never met a racist libertarian.

Militia movements tend to be overtly racist, but what do you mean by "far right movements"? On the whole, there isn't really a big difference in the percentage of Democrats who are racist and that of Republicans who are racist.

[–]psmittyky [score hidden]

As for the racism part, aside from group of commenters far in the minority of r/libertarian, I have never met a racist libertarian.

Just a coincidence that all those neoconfederates make it to high levels of the Pauls' inner circles.

[–]DioSozeAnti-Authoritarian, Anti-State [score hidden]

I would keep in mind that Ron Paul and Rand Paul (Rand Paul even less so - as a Republican) are libertarian in the context of the Libertarian Party of the United States. This is different from libertarianism - the social and political philosophy.

We can learn very little about libertarianism from individuals who have affiliated themselves with the Libertarian Party of the United States. And, incidentally, the sidebar says as much:

This subreddit is for both philosophical and political libertarians of all kinds including, but not limited to the various "types" listed below. It is in no way aligned with the Libertarian Party.

If you want to understand philosophical and political libertarianism, it is best to look at those who have been the founders and leaders in the historical libertarian tradition. People like Tucker, Warren, Rothbard, Mises, etc.

[–]psmittyky [score hidden]

Seems like you guys have quite the boner for them, tho.

[–]MDZX [score hidden]

Who holds the stereotype that libertarians want "free stuff from the government?"

A lot of people.. I was going to make the Tea Party "Don't socialize my medicare, bro!" joke but you beat me to it.

far in the minority

How many racists have you met who were part of r/socialism? I haven't come across a single one. I'm not saying libertarians are racist, far from it, but you should be honest about the fact that there is a non-negligible minority who are proudly racist.

By far right I mostly meant libertarian far right (I don't mean to say Dems are less racist than Repubs), things that aren't included under the label "militia movements".

[–]Sybles[S] [score hidden]

A lot of people.. I was going to make the Tea Party "Don't socialize my medicare, bro!" joke but you beat me to it.

First, the Tea Party =/= libertarian. Really. Self-identified conservatives largely have the monopoly on things like that Medicare quip, not libertarians.

How many racists have you met who were part of r/socialism?

Honestly, I only go there occasionally and haven't spent much time there. I can't really comment about it, other than to say: it is a much smaller sub, and I would say its unlikely that the critical mass of people with far-minority views necessary for them to be outspoken on the sub, would be reached with just a third of the population, to the extent that you could be very sure there is a difference in the percentage of racists in each sub.

libertarian far right

Sorry to niggle, but do you mean "the far-right of libertarians" or "libertarians which constitute the far right"?

[–]MDZX [score hidden]

Yeah, I know the Tea Party is really best described as corporate conservative at this point. It was just a joke I was making. But many people think libertarians want more economic freedom so they can rip people off, etc: for them the motive for deregulation and less government is suspect.

would be reached with just a third of the population,

So you'd expect about a third of the racists, right? It honestly doesn't appear that way, and there's all sorts of squabbling leftist factions. But no racists.

I mean the far right libertarians, who talk about destroying the federal government by force and things like that.

[–]Sybles[S] [score hidden]

So you'd expect about a third of the racists, right?

In absolute number, yes, but the psychology behind someone with known minority views to become outspoken doesn't scale linearly like that (e.g. there are thresholds or "critical masses" to observe effects).

Specifically, the only tool that we have at our disposal is for people to come out and say racist comments, since we don't have things like surveys of the sub's different users.

10 people in a group of 100 are more likely to be outspoken about their minority beliefs than 1 person in a group of 10.

It seems people don't like to comment if they don't receive any comment in solidarity or upvotes in the face of aggressive criticism, like being racist would entail.

Thus, if you suppose a minority racist, the odds of them meeting enough to become outspoken becomes very small even on a sub of ~30,000 if you breakdown the odds that: there will be an article where racist opinions can be interjected (already a small number, since most articles in this sub don't touch on gasoline for racists like "welfare" etc.) in the span of time two racists both happen to be both active on reddit, then go to the same sub, and then see the same article, then feel the need to go into the comment section of the article, then feel the need to comment while the other one has the ability to find the comment if it is not downvoted down too much to be easy to miss.

[–]MDZX [score hidden]

Incidentally, on the other Bundy thread:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/23umz1/cliven_bundy_muses_on_the_negro_for_supporters_on/ch0t3vk

http://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/23umz1/cliven_bundy_muses_on_the_negro_for_supporters_on/ch0rxsu

The second isn't explicitly racist, but it does sound like he's supporting his racist rant. Non racists probably wouldn't act like that.

That's like 10% of the commenters in the thread.

[–]c45c73 [score hidden]

When you start arguing about who is a libertarian, you're getting into No True Scotsman territory.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people you dismiss as un-libertarian actually proudly self-identify as libertarian or regard libertarian principles highly.

No one is saying, "Well, I'd like to be a libertarian, but they're against all that racist stuff, so I guess I'll call myself something else"

It's all winks and dog whistles while fighting for "property rights".

[–]ninjaluvr [score hidden]

And when you let people who have no understanding of libertarianism adopt the term, you risk having your movement hijacked and subverted.

[–]DioSozeAnti-Authoritarian, Anti-State [score hidden]

Many people do identify as libertarian, but they mean something quite different by it. In the USA, most of these individuals - particularly the politicians - identify as libertarian because of their affiliation with the Libertarian Party and the party platform. This is an entirely different thing than philosophical and political libertarianism as a movement. The two do overlap, but they are different. And this sub tends to lean toward the latter. Thus, you'll see a lot of condemnation of people like Rand Paul here, despite libertarian leanings.

Thus, it isn't about who is a "real" libertarian. It's the fact that they are referring to two senses of the word "libertarian" that mean completely different things.

I would also keep in mind that many major figures in libertarian thought and the movement were anti-racist, many of them hardcore abolitionists (e.g. Spooner). If we're going to look to individuals as representatives of libertarianism, it would be better to look toward those who have been influential in defining the movement rather than the average individuals who have been attracted to it.

[–]Raulphlaun [score hidden]

I'm black, give me something. You're right, the only place where I continuously hear about racism is when the left points it out when the right is being racist. Wait, would that be racist to point out... I don't know. I'm too dumb to understand these things.

[–]MDZX [score hidden]

What do you mean by "left"? If you mean "Democratic Party", get outta here. If you mean actual socialists, then what's the problem, exactly?