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What the heck is going on? (self.mwo)

armybratkpによる前の投稿

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[–]Homeless-BillQQ Mercs 3 ポイント4 ポイント 前

/r/mwo was taken back by the original owners (Goons), so most people left for /r/OutreachHPG. Check it out if you're more into news than whine.

[–][deleted] 9 ポイント10 ポイント 前

Talk about blowing yourself. Everyone here likes Serious_Table because he doesn't pull self flagellating crap like this. Without him I doubt Outreach would be in the position it currently is in.

[–]Ed_Elrich 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

Who got deleted and why O.o

[–]Homeless-BillQQ Mercs -1 ポイント0 ポイント 前

I'm losing the popularity contest? Why didn't someone tell me sooner?

Serious is seriously fucking awesome, and /r/OutreachHPG wouldn't have happened at all without him. There's no doubt that he's more principled and civil than I will ever be.

But I'm not going to try to be him or act like him. I'm the same opinionated asshole I've always been, and I'm not going to stop calling it like I see it. The Goons took back their sub, and more than 50% of people left for Outreach; I don't see how that's a controversial statement.

I also don't see how it's controversial to say that Outreach is the place for news and this is the place for whine. A lot of the news and developer communication is x-posted over here, but not all of it. And this is certainly the central hub for discontent. Whine is a loaded term I suppose, but what else would you call constantly and loudly reiterating a negative position?

This guy showed up baffled as to why the place was in revolt, and it's because all that's left are the haters. Not that being a PGI hater is an invalid stance to take, but that is who's still here.

If he's looking for some anti-PGI rage, this is the place to be; if he's looking for just about anything else, I'd recommend Outreach.

[–]ForestGnome4Russ's Islanders 5 ポイント6 ポイント 前

To be fair, any REAL news at outreach is ALWAYS posted here, the rest on outreach is mostly empty twitter promises that never added to the game anyways.

[–]ArquinsielWord of Lowtax 7 ポイント8 ポイント 前

I told you.

[–]Ed_Elrich 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

Man, the HPG downvote squad is here in force

[–][deleted] 6 ポイント7 ポイント 前

Tone means everything, and can still be conveyed through text based speech. As a moderator you also hold a great sway over how the entire sub acts. There are plenty of ways you could convey the idea that the naive fans of MWO split off and made their own sub. The way you presented the facts shows a bias and animosity towards the individuals here (did you pick up the tone from my sentence? It's a reflection of yours). More importantly it rubs off on your users and continues the hate between these subs.

In my eyes you're one of the biggest problems MWO's external community faces.

[–]Homeless-BillQQ Mercs 5 ポイント6 ポイント 前

Now this is a good post with a lot of good points.

As a moderator you also hold a great sway over how the entire sub acts

I recognize that, and when I've got my moderator / Outreach hat on, I set the best example I can. I'm as civil as I can be, I try to rescue threads that are going down for no reason other than being from /r/mwo, and I've explicitly requested people stop downvoting this place several times.

But I don't always have that hat on. This is a place where I can take the gloves off and have some fun. Being civil gets old, so I enjoy the occasional swim in unmoderated waters. I don't particularly want people to follow my example here, but I'm not going to submit to responsibility.

The way you presented the facts shows a bias and animosity towards the individuals here

I don't claim to be neutral. I think this place is mostly a cesspool. I don't think the opinions here are wrong; I think we've all gotten fucked. While I recognize the difficulty of software development, there's also no excusing the ridiculous decisions and lies coming from the top. I've frequently criticized PGI in the past, I continue to do so to this day, and I'm far from being satisfied with the state of the game.

But this sub is 100% negativity. It's either, "It's dead," "It's dying," or "It should die." It gets old. I can link you to plenty of critical submissions on HPG; there are no positive submissions here.

I'd rather players visit Outreach to get information, get help, and discuss things instead of hearing what a shit-fest everything is in every single thread. If they sour on the game, it should be because of their own experience - not from hearing the whines of a thousand disappointments.

More importantly it rubs off on your users and continues the hate between these subs.

I'm certainly not helping, but there's also nothing I can do one way or another in terms of healing the rift. Many on both sides of the fence are bitter, and they'll continue to be regardless of how I act. For three months, I stayed away and did everything I could to promote unpopular x-posts and request that people be civil towards /r/mwo. It did virtually no good.

And as I've stated many times recently, the split is a good thing. This crowd seems to think Outreach is nothing but pro-PGI white knights, and Outreach seems to think you're all a bunch of whiny children. Mixing two groups that have no respect for each other just doesn't work; you're all enjoying /r/mwo with less white knights around, and we're all enjoying Outreach without the constant whining.

In my eyes you're one of the biggest problems MWO's external community faces.

Aww <3

[–]ArquinsielWord of Lowtax 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

You. Do not. Ever. Change. Hat.

This is something we've been telling the PGI mods for years now, why the hell have you not realised it?

[–]Ed_Elrich -1 ポイント0 ポイント 前

I recognize that, and when I've got my moderator / Outreach hat on, I set the best example I can.

You have to realize that even when you DONT have that "hat" on youre STILL a mod there and STILL set an example for what to be expected FROM there. Thats why Kbilly was banned there wasnt it? His shitposting here?

But I don't always have that hat on. This is a place where I can take the gloves off and have some fun. Being civil gets old, so I enjoy the occasional swim in unmoderated waters. I don't particularly want people to follow my example here, but I'm not going to submit to responsibility.

lol great attitude for a mod. Trolling is "fun" to you.

So how far do you get to go till you follow Kbilly? Are you gonna ban yourself?

[–]Ed_Elrich -3 ポイント-2 ポイント 前

I think that if the subs were allowed to get along, there might be a chance (as per what Serious has been trying to do) the subs would re-merge. Bill cant have THAT

[–]Ed_Elrich 2 ポイント3 ポイント 前

Funny, as a moderator youd think youd at least pretend to act like something other than a self flagellating asshole like you do.

You reflect your sub, you SHOULD know that, but you dont care.

Then again, Id rather be here with the whining than somewhere Ill get banned for posting things you dont like, which seems to be your criteria for that.

"Dont be a dick" rule system and all

[–]Ed_Elrich 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

Yeah I like how to ARGUE the point of how bad it is there as opposed to here, he does this lol

[–]Ed_Elrich 7 ポイント8 ポイント 前

Or into being called "literally a terrorist" for asking Niko Snow to do his job.

Also; expect to be downvoted vigourously and told to take your negative attitude here if you display any view other than the lock step of HPG.

[–]Homeless-BillQQ Mercs -1 ポイント0 ポイント 前

expect to be downvoted vigourously and told to take your negative attitude here if you're being a dick

Fixed.

It's the difference between the views voiced in this thread and the views of the original. The content is the same, but the aggressive tone is dialed back. Present your case in a civil manner, and you'll generally be just fine. There are plenty of anti-/r/mwo attitudes on Outreach, but they get moderated like any other insults if they cross the line.

Tone matters a great deal to most people. A lot of you show up shouting and then come crying back here about "censorship" this and "echo chamber" that, when in fact you just presented your case like a total asshole. Many of you do your opinions injustice by being such dicks.

Another fine example of two ways to present an argument can be found here, courtesy of me going off on some random dude. I am an arrogant prick, and I pretty much always think I'm right; however, that does absolutely nothing to convince others. If you don't attempt to tailor your message to your audience, you might as well just not bother.

[–]ArquinsielWord of Lowtax 9 ポイント10 ポイント 前

Do you realise that your "fixed" version is the same as the original?

[–]_Particle_Man_ 8 ポイント9 ポイント 前

but they get moderated like any other insults if they cross the line.

the arbitrary line.

not to mention the non-moderator downvote brigade that will self-moderate opposing opinions.

[–]WoL-MintFrogWord of Lowtax 3 ポイント4 ポイント 前

I love how they added the little disclaimer to their subreddit telling people what the voting is for, and then proceed to downvote the fuck out of anyone who doesn't spew out the PGI party line. They're playing make believe that they're somehow better than the rest of us. Like a Republican Senator who spends all day talking about the sin of being gay, and then spending all evening in a truck stop bathroom sucking cock.

[–]Homeless-BillQQ Mercs -5 ポイント-4 ポイント 前

It's an arbitrary line like all moderation, but what have we censored aside from cunty behavior? What enlightening discussion has happened here that we sheltered Outreach from? Good luck finding something.

And in terms of the downvote brigade, it's like you didn't even read the comment you're responding to. Look here, and now look here. The content is the same, but shockingly one wasn't buried. And it's because one doesn't come off like a pretentious asshole.

I'll admit a few things will never fly over there, but most of the time all it takes is a little effort to not be a pushy evangelist about your views.

[–]Ed_Elrich 3 ポイント4 ポイント 前

About that line.

How do you get banned? Ive never seen that line get defined. I asked multiple times in that neat name and shame thread you made when MWB got banned from there and never got a straight answer.

It seems to be "dont say things we dont like"

Or "dont be a dick" which is the same thing

[–]mechwarriorbuddahIslanders 7 ポイント8 ポイント 前

And I had to argue the point to get Kbilly banned from there by the way.

I did FAR LESS to recieve my ban.

[–]Ed_Elrich 2 ポイント3 ポイント 前

Pretty damning when youre in the negatives Bill, and MECHWARRIOR BUDDAH is getting upvoted

[–]Homeless-BillQQ Mercs 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

No one else gets why this is funny, but I'm practically in tears. You are a champion.

[–]diabloenfuegoHouse Davion Federated Suns 2 ポイント3 ポイント 前

He's not very smart. Turns out, when you argue with children in their own playground, they stick together. He somehow thinks upvotes from a very tiny, yet negatively-focused subset of a population actually represent overall opinion.

You're doing fine, Bill. Everyone's welcome to their opinions, some folks just need to understand that their opinions don't mean shit in an already-existing ocean of shit.

[–]Ed_Elrich -2 ポイント-1 ポイント 前

Its funny, you ban by "feel" the same way the game is balanced by "feel". Neither works

[–]_Particle_Man_ 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

i dont care enough to go search out that sort of thing. Maybe buddah's got some examples, that seems right up his alley.

and i take the path of least resistance to avoid all of that, i leave that sub for those that want to go there. Then i dont have to argue, deal with the blind white knights, or the downvote brigades. Except of course when they come over here to do what they bitch about happening there and to do their downvote brigading here.

there's plenty of space on the internet for both views

[–]ForestGnome4Russ's Islanders 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

I find it ironic that now, Homeless Bill has been censored on Outreach after defending it right here.

[–]Ed_Elrich 3 ポイント4 ポイント 前

HE volunteered to step down btw, its not like he was banned like Kbilly was for the same conduct (kbilly was banned there not for the lawsuit threat like he was here but for his shitposting here).

And given that Bill was the one that led the supposed exodus to HPG (and said he'd never return then returned to do victory laps when Kbilly got banned) his defending free speech here was pretty limp

[–]ForestGnome4Russ's Islanders -1 ポイント0 ポイント 前

I thought serious said he was asked to step down.

[–]Ed_Elrich 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

I thought serious said HE said he'd step down O.o

[–]ForestGnome4Russ's Islanders -1 ポイント0 ポイント 前

After being asked

[–]Ed_Elrich 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

And a much larger part of it is you guys ARE assholes. Like the three cases I mentioned but yeah, keep preaching

You admitting youre an asshole doesnt make you less of one

[–]Ed_Elrich 2 ポイント3 ポイント 前

A GREAT example of this, as youre so keen on examples is this subthread:

http://www.reddit.com/r/mwo/comments/238535/mwo_news_win_5_games_get_a_free_phoenix_mech_mech/cgukdof

Follow it dows to where diablo is trying to say Victor is the exact same type of evil as Kbilly/ForestGnome/whoever called him a terrorist, BECAUSE HE'S VOCAL

[–]diabloenfuegoHouse Davion Federated Suns 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

I never said Victor was threatening people...only that he stirs the pot-of-shit in HPG just like you were so keen to point out that some people seem to come here to stir shit up. That was my entire point, that it isn't just one forum or the other, but the people themselves; you can't just lump everyone into one forum and call it a day unless you're completely inept and don't understand social structure (these people are usually called bigots when they blindly follow these pre-determinations). This is a point that you missed repeatedly because you've got your own agenda you're trying to sell (as you're attempting to do again by posting this).

This is a very subtle way to try to bring back up an old, tired, and pointless conversation though while trying to make yourself seem like you're above it. Nice try, still pathetic.

Anyone that reads that threads should bear in mind that Ed missed the entire point of the discussion from the get-go. Ah well, c'est la vie. You can't fix stupid and you can't change people.

[–]Homeless-BillQQ Mercs -1 ポイント0 ポイント 前

I don't really understand your point or how this relates at all to what I'm saying. There are assholes everywhere, including Outreach. My only claim is that if you present your case with a civil tone, you won't be downvoted into oblivion on Outreach.

If you want to keep tallies on which sub has how many assholes, you go right ahead. I'm not going to engage you on this straw man diversion. This was your original claim:

expect to be downvoted... if you display any view other than the lock step of HPG.

And it's bullshit. That is all.

[–]Ed_Elrich 2 ポイント3 ポイント 前

No, its really not sadly

[–]WoL-MintFrogWord of Lowtax 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

"My only claim is that if you present your case with a civil tone, you won't be downvoted into oblivion on Outreach." If you honestly believe this, you're an idiot. If you don't, you're just a liar. Which is it?

[–]Homeless-BillQQ Mercs 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

/u/PoliteVictorMorson. Those threads fared much better than their original counterparts here and here. There were still a disproportionately high number of downvotes, but a less alarmist and aggressive tone made both of them do just fine.

Some at Outreach will downvote /r/mwo x-posts and negativity no matter what. They're the same people that come over and downvote random things. I wish they didn't. But as long as you state your case in a civil fashion, most people will listen.

Check this out. I could have easily made that a post that got buried by making it sound more like this:

Just kidding. It fucking sucks. THE AC/2 WAS JUST FINE WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!?!? WAY TO GO PAUL YOU'RE RUININING MWO!

If you were trying to get someone at work fired, would you run in shouting to the boss, "FRED IS A FUCKING IDIOT AND HE HAS NO IDEA WHAT HE'S DOING! HE'S LITERALLY RUINING EVERYING!" or would you calmly and logically lay out your case against Fred, keeping as much emotion out of it as possible? All that most (not all, but most) people at Outreach are looking for is an adult tone. It can even be harsh. But the alarmist sentiment doesn't fly.

[–]Sarsapariller 6 ポイント7 ポイント 前

Bill, stop banging your head on the brick wall. Just accept that the MWO/OutreachHPG dynamic is summed up from this scene in Ren & Stimpy, and move on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpJNXZQ-ROY

[–]diabloenfuegoHouse Davion Federated Suns 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

This is a sensible and accurate sentiment.

[–]WoL-MintFrogWord of Lowtax 2 ポイント3 ポイント 前

You can play pretend that you're more mature than others over in your little sandbox if you want. However, living in a land of make believe about what MWO and PGI actually are is not being an adult. Coming into /mwo to stir up shit at every opportunity is a great example of that.

[–]mechwarriorbuddahIslanders 3 ポイント4 ポイント 前

Man, is everyone at HPG coming into this thread to play karma wars? lol

[–]WoL-MintFrogWord of Lowtax 4 ポイント5 ポイント 前

White knights hate it when you expose them for what they really are.

[–]Ed_Elrich 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

Coming into /mwo to stir up shit at every opportunity is a great example of that.

Doing so when Serious_Table is trying to do the opposite is just being a complete asshole.

[–]VictorMorson 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

I make no secret of the aggressive and loud tone. And "shit stirring" as someone called it above fits. Mostly because I like shaking people back to reality from time to time again, in particular when they try to desperately insulate themselves from it.

Also at this point direct feedback about Paul is warranted. He created the systems we hate, he created the UI we hate, he makes the balance changes we hate and he avoids work for as long as possible, just causing.. more hate.

As the picture becomes more and more clear at PGI with information coming out of them, it becomes painfully clear he is the #1 root problem for almost all issues in the game, with Russ enabling him to keep that position being even worse.

I honestly believe if they were to remove him and promote just ONE person who gives a damn about the franchise and not trying to pretend they are a super pro game developer, they'd turn this game around fast.

So yeah. Attacks directed at Paul are absolutely warranted at this point. It's a shame HPG doesn't want to admit there's a problem because if they voted with their wallets, maybe we'd finally get rid of this idiot.

[–]Homeless-BillQQ Mercs 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

No disagreements here. Frankly, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone that would defend Paul at this point.

I just think that what you see as a wake-up call is actually just turning people off to the idea that there are legitimate problems. If you were trying to convince church-goers that there was no god, you wouldn't run in on a Sunday screaming, "GOD IS A LIE, YOU FUCKING IDIOTS!" They'd simply tune you out, be offended, and move on (and possibly call the police).

It makes all the people with legitimate complaints and concerns look loud and crazy, frankly. You may think adding soft language softens the message, but I think you'll find that your approach to "convincing" people is ineffective in every facet of life. You can't bludgeon a view into someone - you have to subvert their view by finding common ground and exploiting it.

That said, you're totally entitled to your style; I just think it does the opposite of what you intend.

[–]Ed_Elrich 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

It makes all the people with legitimate complaints and concerns look loud and crazy, frankly.

pot, meet kettle given the statements you make later on O.o

[–]TheFlamingGitLiao Death Commandos -1 ポイント0 ポイント 前

HEIL MYSELF !

[–]p256 2 ポイント3 ポイント 前

hydra

[–]VictorMorson 7 ポイント8 ポイント 前

"Most people" is a vast, vast overstatement, Bill.

More like "Most people who still insist the game is fine, everything is fine, no really" moved there. There's just as much activity over here.

[–]WoL-MintFrogWord of Lowtax 5 ポイント6 ポイント 前

What we learned after the split is that of the people subscribed to /MWO, only about a third of them are either active, or give a shit about hanging out with white knights enough to head over to HPG. If that isn't a huge cultural victory for our side, I don't know what is.

[–]cheeseman82 6 ポイント7 ポイント 前

Out of the thousands of subscribed users, there's ~50 active users of these subreddits. +/- 5 at any time for HPG want to get their daily refreshing read about how rainbows are flying out of Paul's spectacular balancing ass.

Woopty fucking doo. King of Molehill Mountain.

[–]WoL-MintFrogWord of Lowtax 5 ポイント6 ポイント 前

50 would be very generous. Most of the time it's 20-30.