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DiscussionFeminists on gaming site discuss failed MRA demographics survey (from yesterday) (self.MensRights)

Xenniosによる前の投稿

My first post so bare with me please. Mods do what you gotta do if this is messed up in some way. Anyhow,

I'd like to know what you guys think of this. As I see it, they are basically ignoring the fact that the data was "poisoned" because it coincides with the biases that they already had. TriggerWarning if you are easily irritated do not read. This is especially upsetting because the other survey did not seem fabricated, to my eyes at least, but they are sucking this one right up.

Link to discussion - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=801186 Link to survey - http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/22tswa/demographics_survey_results/ Previous survey - http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1gp2u6/

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[–]SarcastiCock 32 ポイント33 ポイント 前

Unfortunately, it appears that the /r/MensRights survey was brigaded with bots, or maybe even some very dedicated trolls. Regardless, the results for the survey of this sub are clearly compromised. I apologize for the disappointment.

[–]rg57 15 ポイント16 ポイント 前

"TriggerWarning"

That's my trigger.

[–]jwinf843 14 ポイント15 ポイント 前

Mine too. I see it as a symptom of terminal immaturity.

[–]AlexReynard 6 ポイント7 ポイント 前

Tigger Warning: bouncy plush tigers ahead

[–]Xennios[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント 前

For the record I was using it in a derisive manner :-P

[–]Stilgar1973 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

Vwls. m trggrd b vwls.

Pls n th ftr ncld trggr wrnng whn sng vwls.

Thnxs stlgr1973

[–]VuffyPulva 25 ポイント26 ポイント 前

Looks like they found this thread. Downvotes aplenty.

[–]Xennios[S] 19 ポイント20 ポイント 前

I just don't get it, why are they so content to shout others down and spread non-information....ARRRGH lol

[–]TracyMorganFreeman 13 ポイント14 ポイント 前

Because they care more about being right. They're invested in their position being right because their ideals are ascribed to that position, and see its success/failure as a reflection of their ideals and therefore themselves.

[–]NordlichenUbermensch 3 ポイント4 ポイント 前

You must be confused. If they cared more about being right, they'd listen to evidence and integrate it into their views. I'm a person who cares a lot about being right, and I'm certainly not a feminist.

I think what you mean is they care more about controlling society.

[–]TracyMorganFreeman 8 ポイント9 ポイント 前

No they care more that their position is right, which is different than wanting to know what the right answer is.

[–]jcea_ 6 ポイント7 ポイント 前

No they care more that their position is perceived as right, which is different than wanting to know what the right answer is.

This is how I would put it.

[–]TracyMorganFreeman 3 ポイント4 ポイント 前

Fair enough.

[–]OneBigCosmicHorror 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

They don't care about being right. They care about being seen as being in the right.

The actual truth of their opinions are irrelevant, they simply want them to be universally accepted and propagated regardless of the actual veracity of those opinions.

[–]shoshok 14 ポイント15 ポイント 前

I just checked it, the majority of them appear to not know that the results were brigaded. Ignorance is bliss I suppose, also gotta love the comment on the last page about penis size, not sexist in the least. Also demonstrates the feminist movements hypocrisy, questioning a man's masculinity because he's an MRA is so laughable. Feminists love to say they fight against gender roles, disagree with feminists? They reinforce them. "You aren't masculine enough snipe here".

[–]Xennios[S] 15 ポイント16 ポイント 前

I also love how they ridicule the MRM as virgin neckbeard losers, I thought they hated that kind of gender dichotomy (sluts vs studs)....it's almost like they think men are less valuable based on how many females they have been with.

[–]Maschalismos 5 ポイント6 ポイント 前

no, no. Virgin rapist neckbeard losers. Get it right :)

[–]caesarkid1 -1 ポイント0 ポイント 前

So just "Rapist Neckbeard Losers" then.

[–]Endless_Summer -2 ポイント-1 ポイント 前

Buddy, there's no almost about it. Get used to it or do something about it.

[–]-Fender- 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

And how would you propose that we might go about changing the mentality of hundreds of thousands of people enough so that they can perceive this double standard, beyond simply calling them out for it when you happen to witness them use this as an insult?

[–]bunker_man 2 ポイント3 ポイント 前

You think people in ideologies are willing to risk the ideology in the name of accuracy?

[–]JamesKukuk 4 ポイント5 ポイント 前

God, I'm an awful debater. It's compounded when you're trying to debate 50 people who are the furthest thing from open minds.

[–]shoshok 5 ポイント6 ポイント 前

Dude, just give it up. You aren't gonna change minds. You're dealing with a lost cause, discuss these topics here and on r/egalitarian and you'll remain far more sane. r/mensrights needs a steam group..... that needs to happen.

As it is, somebody should preserve that neogaf thread and this mensrights thread and put it up online permanently so people can see the difference between self-recognized feminists and the supposedly evil, white supremacist, MRAs here on Reddit.

[–]JamesKukuk 4 ポイント5 ポイント 前

That's what I've done now. It's hard for me to let some shit slide, so I get pulled into these kind of threads, but when nobody is on your side it really whittles you away very quickly.

Of course, I'm sure I won't learn my lesson in the future, and it'll start all over again.

[–]shoshok 8 ポイント9 ポイント 前

Please do learn your lesson, puh-lease. It's just not worth it and neogaf has alright games discussion on gaming side. Also there are gaffers on your side, they just aren't gonna step up to the plate for it.

In my opinion it's simply not worth dealing with that mob, they will pick the easiest point any opposition makes and avoid taking any further points on. EvilLore's going nuts over there thinking we're truly enraged by his trolling. I mostly think it's sad that these supposedly pro-equality individuals don't have the intellectual integrity, or self-analytical tendencies, to see their hypocrisy.

If you went into a representation of women thread on neogaf, regardless of where you stand on the topic and cracked a joke about Anita for example. It nets you a ban. I've seen it happen. That's not even necessarily a sexist joke, though I've seen sexist jokes targeted at Anita earn bans (makes sense given it's not relevant to her message and we also get annoyed at those looking to our gender to dismiss our views), I've also seen bans for jokes about the poor quality of her content or her reasoning for things. Those aren't sexist reasons for mocking her.

Yet here? In a discussion of a movement that seeks equality in spaces where it views discrepancies, it's perfectly ok to joke about the participants of the movement's masculinity? Or femininity? Some are even saying the homosexuals involved here should be ashamed, why? Show me where we treat homosexuals in MR like shit without downvotes below the threshold. The comments not being removed are not evidence of hate, we have a rather lax moderation policy across the board here to ensure that we don't become insular. We don't want to become feminism, which we perceive as insular, so unsurprisingly we take steps to avoid following in its footsteps. One of those steps is a lax censorship policy that's allowed some of those neogaf posters to come in here and troll, see u/mrafuckslol as an example.

Maybe that's alien to these people who need to exist within a structure where they are guarded from different opinions, where they can argue over miniscule differences in viewpoints to create the facade of debate but where no real differing views are offered or argued for.

Feminism owns the equality discourse according to some gaffers and it absolutely owns NeoGAF's equality discourse. Those gaffers ask why this movement exists, why it doesn't merge with feminism? Because of feminists like those on NeoGAF, this whole reddit/NeoGAF exchange is the exact reason we want no part of your vitriolic movement that immediately proceeds to ignore and mock those who hold opposing views. So you think that women have it harder than men? So what? Men/women shouldn't discuss what negatively impacts men? Is this the oppression olympics, do we need to resolve every single inadequacy that women might face before looking to how men are treated unfairly? I identify as egalitarian, as many here on the MR subreddit do, the version of "equality" that's popular on NeoGAF doesn't coincide with my perception of equality.

That's why r/mensrights exists.

[–]JamesKukuk 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

Being an optimist, I have a hard time just letting it go for good. I've seen way too many threads about a poor guy contemplating suicide to not think there could be some place for men's rights discussion there. I think there are people that are receptive of the message. And I think if more people put their neck out, more people will start to see reason.

It's just a damn shame there isn't someone a little more articulate and intelligent than myself to put their neck out.

[–]shoshok 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

We have more productive, accomplishable things. My advice is when you see those men refer them to the appropriate subreddits via PM? Maybe. Lately we've been working on getting universities to change their pages on rape to gender neutral terminology, we've had a pretty solid degree of success.

That makes a difference, arguing with trolls makes no difference. Save your time, help us do cool things and help out individuals who you feel might be receptive/need it. :)

[–]Xennios[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント 前

Swordfighting the fart, playing chess with the pigeon etc, they do not seem to play by the same rules: factual information for one.

[–]AlphaWookie 21 ポイント22 ポイント 前

If they believe the wage gap myth they will believe anything. That's how cults work.

[–]ashfalls 2 ポイント3 ポイント 前

this is going to be my threshold of rational conversation. If someone firmly believes in the wage gap myth, i should just turn around and not lose anymore braincells.

[–]shoshok 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

Not a bad metric in the least, mine's women. Are you a woman? Yes? Then I hate & despise & refuse to discuss things with you.

The only way I communicate with my girlfriend is via hisses, stares, growls and aggressive dance moves so she knows how angstry (this is a new term I'm inventing) I am.

[–]AlexReynard 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

Was about to downvote, and then I LOLed.

[–]VuffyPulva 15 ポイント16 ポイント 前

Neogaf is one of the biggest feminist/liberal cesspools on the internet. Lord knows how many times I've been banned from there for expressing the wrong opinion...

[–]Psuedofem -1 ポイント0 ポイント 前

How many accounts did you make? lol

[–]VuffyPulva 3 ポイント4 ポイント 前

lol, just one. Every time I'd get banned it'd be like a 2 week ban.

[–]saint2e 4 ポイント5 ポイント 前

Never heard if Neogaf before, but I enjoy the validation of anonymous web forms not being a reliable way to track information.

[–]goodgodm8 14 ポイント15 ポイント 前

Wow, this site is full of ethnic and gender masochists. They actually downplay the role that white men had in creating modern, western societies. I wonder if they'd be willing to toss their computers out the window and cancel their electricity.

I've noticed that feminists are cut from the same cloth as cultural Marxists. They're indoctrinated into believing they somehow need to atone for the sin of being male and/or white. If they're women or minorities, they think that men and white people have intrinsic advantages that need to be stripped away, no matter what statistics or evidence is shown to them. If there isn't equality of outcome, then oppression is assumed. The oppressor-victim struggle will always be at the core of their ideology, no matter what happens. Even when women earn as much as men, the goalposts are moved, and they're oppressed for some other reason. Truth is irrelevant to them.

[–]Xennios[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント 前

I've heard someone say that "checking privilege" is like a holy ritual or prayer. It doesn't actually do anything or help someone who is disadvantaged, but it makes certain types feel good about themselves.

[–]shoshok -2 ポイント-1 ポイント 前

Agreed, "slaves". I forgot all those amazing structures back in Africa the slaves built before coming into contact with european engineers, mathematicians and architects. Not to mention pre-black slavery european civilizations? Explain those.

edit: I saw some on neogaf point out that I put slaves in quotations, I'm actually not certain why I did it. I believe I was going to word the sentence differently but I've forgotten. Normally I wouldn't come back to a post and alter it but I don't want it to seem like I believe slavery is fake or something of that sort. It's an abomination to enslave any person for any reason and I felt that misunderstanding important enough to come back and clear that up.

I'll leave the original post untouched above as to avoid accusations of cover ups, for the sake of honesty in discourse and so those here on mensrights subreddit know what I'm speaking about.

[–]Visimicus 4 ポイント5 ポイント 前

Egypt didn't have slaves for the most part. Most workers were paid, albeit with food and beer most of the time, but this was occurring during the yearly flooding of the nile when extra work was needed to begin with. So it was a pretty good deal for everyone involved. The reason Egypt never really got around to having slaves is because Egypt wasn't really an empire which took over nations and peoples, which is the primary way slaves were produced at that time.

[–]goodgodm8 2 ポイント3 ポイント 前

I think you put it in quotations to express your disbelief at the idea that they think slaves were responsible for building western civilization, the world we live in today. This is not to diminish the severity or scope of an atrocity like slavery. Slavery is always a horrible thing, but saying that slaves built western societies is honestly taking white guilt and historical revisionism to an impressive new level.

[–]Santaball -1 ポイント0 ポイント 前

Oh you mean the pyramids and ancient successful civilizations of Africa. Here you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Africa

The cool thing about these structures is that even today a lot of people don't understand how they built it. I somehow don't expect the 30 rock to still be standing after 5000 years.

[–]shoshok 3 ポイント4 ポイント 前

I was referring mostly to sub-saharan/western Africa, as that's where most black slaves pulled out into Western slave trades were taken from. Also there's heavy debate about the race of the ancient egyptians and many of the structures in that article were constructed by berbers who are not black. As such the pyramids of the ancient egyptians and other ancient northern african civilizations, in response to my comments about black slaves, is rather shaky ground to form an argument on. 30 Rock won't last as long as the pyramids, rebar/steel decreases the integrity of concrete long term in general but that's hardly indiciative of the achievement; it's a far more advanced structure. The comparison makes absolutely no sense.

Regardless, I'm not here to sit and have some race accomplishment list war. I'm merely stating that anybody who thinks whites haven't contributed significantly to the advanced state of civilization is fucking delusional and racist. Sorry however, if my original statement offended you. I had no intention of doing so.

[–]Santaball 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

Hey, no problem dude. Just here to educate. If you actually check the Wikipedia Link, it includes the sub-saharan/western Africa areas such as Ghana and it mentions the Ghana empire of Tichitt-Walata. And although berbers where not "black" they were African. Africa is a pretty big continent so when you say black I assume you meant African.

I don't mean to pick on you but, it's a little disheartening when I hear things like this because people actually believe that Caucasians just thought up everything while sitting on the toilet. The truth is that today's technology is the culmination of everyone including Chinese philosophers, Arab mathematicians and even African astronomers. I only wish this meaningless construct of race didn't even exist. Peace and Love bro.

[–]shoshok 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

Thanks for being cordial, much appreciated.

[–]shoshok 5 ポイント6 ポイント 前

NeoGAF is pretty bad, I'm surprised they are just now showing up on men's rights. Their conversations on feminism are very often disconcerting/circle-jerky/biggoted. It's largely tolerated by the mods and others who land on the opposing side of SJW-ism are held to a higher standard by mods and end up banned far more often.

The good news is as they've weeded out dissent and the remaining who do dissent remain silent and discuss the matter off the NeoGAF-radar, these threads die because they have no opposing views to feed off of. A year or two years ago? These threads would go on for pages and pages of arguments and become ban graveyards. Now the silent majority just lets the threads die down and the ideas within them gain far less publicity as such.

[–]VuffyPulva 4 ポイント5 ポイント 前

Mumei is the absolute worst mod. A radical feminist/SJW in every sense of the word. He/she has all the feminist talking points down, and doesn't shy away from talking down to those who disagree. Evidence means nothing to them, and basically laughs at those who don't follow the feminist dogma. Even implying men have it as bad as women to Mumei is like saying the sky is green.

Just a really unpleasant individual.

[–]Xennios[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

Man did it take me by surprise when I traveled into the Off-topic section. I originally only went there for gaming news but Christ, I almost regret making myself aware of the OT there....some of the threads are good and informative but there's just far too much dogma flying around and people seem to get banned for the silliest reasons. The mods certainly seem to be among the SJW type crowd....really annoying watching them shut down dissenters when given even the slightest reason to drop the banhammer.

[–]shoshok 3 ポイント4 ポイント 前

Interestingly enough, this NeoGAF thread is the perfect example of what I mean. The few voices who did dissent or at least tell the truth (like that survey being brigaded) in the thread were ignored, likely because there were too few (or their points directly contradicted most poster's pre-conceived notions of the MRA-movement with evidence) and now the SJW-sect of NeoGAF is feeding off this thread for its opposition.

The NeoGAF thread would have died if we weren't discussing it right now.

[–]Xennios[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

Correct, I seem to have given them just the monster that they want to slay, it's not even important what we're actually discussing here is it? I`m sure feminists have swollen the ranks of MRAs in this sense too, feminists are the reason I even know about this reddit, lol I just had to see who these cretinous misogynistic punks were for myself

[–]guywithaccount 3 ポイント4 ポイント 前

They don't have to be fair or reasonable because there's no consequence. No one is going to call out NeoGAF for being bigoted shitheads, at least no one they care about. They don't have the equivalent of the feminist shame army blogging about how much they suck or reducing them to caricatures. No one's going to pull ads because of this. And if the users don't like it, they can just go to some other gaming forums that don't bend over backwards to kiss feminist ass... oh wait, there aren't any, are there? Because feminism has made a concerted effort to infiltrate gaming culture and demand that it conform to suit them or else they'll call it misogynist and accuse it of having a small dick.

[–]shoshok 5 ポイント6 ポイント 前

I found out about MRAs due to feminists as well. I was tired of the widespread sexism/racism in that movement and calling video games I liked "problematic".

Little did I know at the time that was what constituted a literal tip of an iceberg. Anyways, NeoGAF posters are rather harmless and we shouldn't waste our time with radfems who have no institutional power when we can work on radfems who do have institutional power like Adele Mercier or work on improving men's standing in society in general.

Not saying it was wrong to create this thread btw, I'm glad folks on mensrights are now aware but these people clearly don't want a discussion. They won't respond to actual points within this thread and are now actually looking at other threads on mensrights for their boogeymen, I assume because some of the points we've made in here are too hard to tackle for them.

edit: Awesome the mods shut it down, I like that they think we'll be upset about it though (they referenced my silent majority comment, which admittedly may not be true, I have no way of knowing whether those in opposition to it are a majority on neogaf -- I just know they exist). I'm actually happy, it was too troll centric for my tastes.

[–]JamesKukuk 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

I jumped into the fray a bit, but all I could do was link a GWW video, and hope people bothered to watch it. I'm not very suited for good discussion.

I remember a few months ago I had linked to one of her videos, and actually got messages thanking me for bringing it to their attention. I think there is desire, for some folks, to discuss men's issues there. It's just in general it's an extremely poor place to do so...

[–]shoshok 4 ポイント5 ポイント 前

I saw you & good luck man. My advice is to watch out, I wasn't kidding when I said the mods were slanted. There's been confirmation of such in the past that the mods consider arguments from certain viewpoints inherently more valid than others. Despite encouraging debate (which is counter intuitive).

My mistake was saying "silent majority" but they would have found something to mock regardless. NeoGAF's feminists will pick the easiest target to argue against as it's too hard to challenge your own views with the other points in some of these posts. Look how they treated my reply to the penis joke, it pointed out that these feminists who supposedly fought gender roles for both sexes were actually reinforcing gender stereotypes and roles and they just ignored that despite highlighting that specific post.

edit: I also love how more mature this thread was, great job Mens rights, nearly unmoderated and we conducted ourselves in such a superior fashion over these people who were ridiculing our ages/maturity (which weren't accurate) and discussed this within one of the most moderated gaming forums on the web.

[–]Xennios[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

edit: I also love how more mature this thread was, great job Mens rights, nearly unmoderated and we conducted ourselves in such a superior fashion over these people who were ridiculing our ages/maturity (which weren't accurate) and discussed this within one of the most moderated gaming forums on the web.

This is an especially important point. Looking at the TOS they seem to pride themselves as being this awesome critical place of mature discourse but it's quite clear that this all goes out the window when discussing certain things. I don't think any objective bystander could infer that MRA are less mature somehow looking at both threads. Post below by lolmrafucks further shows the irony.

[–][deleted] 前

[deleted]

    [–]shoshok 4 ポイント5 ポイント 前

    Jokes about gender roles are appropriate in discussions of gender equality? I don't think so, I'm a huge comedy fan, I watch Bill Maher, I watch Jon Stewart, I watch many, many programs. A few weeks ago Bill Maher joked about male rape victims, I found it funny because it was a comedic bit in the correct environment.

    But when you enter a discussion pertaining to gender equality and then crack demeaning jokes about one's femininity or masculinity because they don't hold certain beliefs? That's pathetic.

    [–][deleted] 前

    [deleted]

      [–]Xennios[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

      I`m glad it got shut down too, right from the get go it wasn't really grounds for an actual discussion but rather a circlejerk, the very data in the OP had been "brigaded". In this sense the study was not a complete failure, it at least showed us how willing some people are to drink up lies which are convenient to their pre-held ideas. It could've been a single color pie chart showing 100% in favor of "I think it's ok to beat and rape women" and they wouldve taken that and ran with it. Even after the fact some were still saying it indicated "trends" which is true to some extent there are a lot of atheists on reddit and so on. Still you'd think posters besides the Kinyou guy (OR GIRL) (and one or two others?) wouldn't be generally ignored like that.

      [–]Xennios[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

      Of course they would re-open the thread after reading this lol, easy manipulation.

      [–]VuffyPulva 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

      Looks like Evilore opened it in the hopes that we would quote mine his sarcasm as legitimate anti-MRA criticism.

      It's kinda sad that people on Neogaf think so little of MRAs. I don't think most MRA have nearly the same level of disdain for feminists.

      [–]Xennios[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

      It's just funny how easily controlled they are, all we had to do is express some amount of pleasure over it being locked and BAM, unlocked. Even as I was typing that I knew they'd probably re-open it. Really they are just proving themselves immature hypocrites. If you saw the initial post by the mod that locked the thread it was your standard blah blah we're locking this because it has just created a forum war and our standards of discourse are so high on GAF, we do not allow this! Not two seconds later they completely go back on that, funny and sad to see that little scramble. It's like they hang on our every word. Even if it weren't re-opened for that exact reason my main point still stands.

      [–]LaRazaBlanca 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

      I find the term trigger offensive.. It is basically saying you refuse to take responsibility and control of your state of mind, and 'triggered' people use the term as an excuse to behave in unacceptable manners in order to stifle the expression of others!

      (Am i doin it right? )

      [–]methos75 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

      I love the gaming focused part of Neogaf, but the OT is very much a hive mind where any free thought that does not correspond with the Neogaf world view will quickly get you banned no matter how legitimate your point is. I got banned from there a few months back due to a comment where in a topic about some guy who killed his cheating wife's lover, when I pointed out that the man killed was only a victim due to his trying to sow another man's garden so too speak. They found it to be victim blaming which I guess is against their idiotic TOS, when you know, some times the victim is too blame. Such as in this case. The mere audacity that one was obliged to point this truth out, was enough to get be flamed by the mods.

      [–]shoshok 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

      Agreed but even gaming side can be invaded if one of those "representation of women" threads pops up.

      [–]IS44 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

      Oh jesus criminy. One survey, created by one person, that had a million flaws and was brigaded to death, does not a conversation on true demographics make.

      I'm not really sure I understand why anyone - feminist, MRA or otherwise - is up in arms about this. It's got about as much merit as a fucking Buzzfeed survey. Or one of those, "Click 'Like' and share your profile, your left arm and your firstborn child to see your UNIQUE survey results" quizzes.

      [–]lordslag 0 ポイント1 ポイント 前

      Ignorance misandry from feminists? What a SHOCK! Why..I never... /s

      [–]johnmars3 -1 ポイント0 ポイント 前

      "TriggerWarning" are you twelve or are you retarded?

      [–]shoshok 1 ポイント2 ポイント 前

      Read the comments dude, it was a joke.