オリバー・ストーン監督本紙インタビュー 非暴力の闘い積極的に -

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オリバー・ストーン監督本紙インタビュー　非暴力の闘い積極的に2013年8月4日

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「県民の声は効果をもたらしている。人口は少ないが、今はみんなが沖縄を知っている」と話し、不条理に声を上げ続けることの大切さを強調するオリバー・ストーン監督＝７月１９日、米カリフォルニア州サンタモニカ

　琉球新報のインタビューでオリバー・ストーン監督は米国の外交史を振り返り、冷戦終結など軍縮に向かう大きな分岐点は何度も存在したと説明し、同時に変化を実現するには市民が声を上げることが重要だと指摘した。沖縄は基地負担の不条理を県民が訴え続けた結果、「今ではみんなが沖縄を知っている」と話し「県民の抗議は効果を上げている」と強調した。（聞き手・島袋良太）

◆歴史学ぶ重要性　国は歴史にふたをしたがる

　―核開発競争など米国の安保・外交史を検証したドキュメンタリー「もう一つのアメリカ史」を昨年発表した。国内外の反応は。
　「米国主要メディアの多くは批判的だったか、黙殺した。『映画監督』の私が学校で習った米国の歴史を逆さまの視点で描くのは、受け入れ難いのかもしれない。しかし放映後、（共同で脚本を手掛けた歴史家の）ピーター・カズニックは、歴史家たちから高い評価を受けた。後編に進むに連れ、視聴者が増え、今は週平均で１１０万の視聴者がいる。ことし１０月には大手のワーナー・ブラザースが作品をＤＶＤ化する。大きな進歩だ。英国では保守系のメディアを含めて非常に反応が良かった。日本でも有料チャンネルで深夜枠の放送だったが、制限がある中で非常によくやった」
　―海外の立場や歴史を踏まえると、米国の歴史はどう見えるか。
　「歴史を学び始めると全てが違って見える。例えば日本でもそうだが、国は歴史に“ふた”をしたがる。米国の歴史は、日本への原爆投下は戦争を終結に導いた正しい選択だったと位置付けている。だが徹底的に調べれば、原爆投下は戦略的に必要なかったと分かる。道徳的にも嫌悪されるべきものだ。ソ連の日本侵攻こそが日本降伏の大きな要因だと理解した時、歴史を見る方程式は変わる。冷戦は原爆投下に始まった。ソ連と米国は『ライバル関係』となり、米軍は今も日本に居座り続けている」
　「アイゼンハワー、レーガン、ブッシュ、オバマといった現在にも通じる米国政治を検証した。米国は今や『国家安全保障』ではなく、かつてないほどの帝国主義的な『世界安全保障』を目指す巨大な要塞（ようさい）になった。最近ではエドワード・スノーデン（米国による世界規模の通信傍受を暴露した元ＣＩＡ職員）について、米国はこの男の活動を止め、亡命を受け入れないよう他国に圧力をかけている。欧州は以前は米国から独立した行動を取っていたが、今は残念ながら米国の言いなりだ」

◆米と沖縄の関係　矛盾の放置、耐え難い

　―沖縄は２０万人余が命を落とした激しい地上戦があり、戦後も米軍基地が集中している。沖縄を初めて訪問するが、印象は。
　「明らかなのは米国と沖縄の関係は一方的だということだ。米国は沖縄に基地を置き続けることに関心を抱いている。海上航路の制御という世界戦略を満たす重要な場所にあると考えているはずだ。現在の目標は中国の制御だ。沖縄をグアムやハワイ真珠湾のように（米本土から離れた軍事拠点として）利用したいのだろう。そして日本は沖縄に米軍基地を押し付けておけばいいと思っている」
　「多くの米国人は沖縄を第２次世界大戦で多くの米軍人が命を落とし、栄光の勝利を得た島だと思っている。沖縄が１８７９年まで独立国として存在し、日本が沖縄を侵攻した歴史は全く知らないはずだ」
　「私は今回の旅程で韓国済州島も訪れる。皮肉だが済州島は沖縄と似ている。巨大な開発に住民が脅かされている島だ。韓国政府は巨大な海軍基地の建設を進めているが、実際は米軍が使うために建設される。建設でサンゴ礁が破壊されようとしている」
　―米国は民主主義や平等を、建国や憲法の精神として掲げてきたが、沖縄はその理念と反した状況にある。
　「明確な二重基準だ。この矛盾を指摘することが『もう一つのアメリカ史』を制作した理由だ。この精神を掲げることは米国の帝国主義的政策を正当化するかもしれないが、この矛盾の放置は私にとって耐え難い。納税者として『帝国のコスト』も考えるべきだ」
　「沖縄に関しては、日本政府が米軍駐留費を支払い、米国は『おいしい契約』を交わしている。日米地位協定は、われわれに、沖縄の中にいても（日本の法制度の適用を除外する）独立を認めている。これは米軍のイラク撤退にも結び付いた要因だ。多くの人の指摘では、イラクは米国と地位協定を結ぶことを承認しなかったため、米軍は撤退を決めた。米国は国際法廷で裁かれるのを恐れている。不当に裁かれるのを恐れているからでもあるが、自らの振る舞いも恐れているのだろう」

◆「県民の声」の効果　今はみんなが沖縄知っている

　―米ロ冷戦時をはじめとする軍拡競争をシリーズで描いたが、「中国の台頭」をどう見るか。しばしば沖縄に基地を置き続ける理由に持ち出される。
　「中国を抑え付ければ問題が起きるだろう。『小さな巨人』の成長を止めようとすべきではない。確かに中国は中国の問題を抱えている。しかし『敵』と見なすべきではない。彼らもスマートなはずだ。中国は完全な民主主義ではなく、一党支配で、固有の問題もある。とはいえわれわれは共存し、世界は多極化しなくてはならない。米国は『なぜ自分たちは常に世界中で軍事競争を続けなくてはならないのか』と自問してこなかった。１９９１年のソ連崩壊はその大きな機会だった。しかし覇権的政治を追求し、軍事費の規模を維持し、基地を拡張し続けた」
　―米国も日本も変化を求める国民の意思が政治の場で示される場面は何度もあった。例えば最近の日本は米軍普天間飛行場の県外移設を掲げた民主党政権が誕生したが、結局、挫折した。
　「その観点から大衆運動が重要だ。大衆運動はリーダーに闘いのよりどころを与える。ルーズベルト元大統領は背後に大衆が付いていると思ったからこそ、金融業界の圧力を押し切り、改革を成し遂げた。ケネディ元大統領は６４年の選挙で再選すれば、温めていた多くの政策を実行しようと思っていた。彼は最も変化をもたらすことを期待できる人物だった。それが再選前に暗殺された理由だと思う」
　「オバマ大統領もとても似た事例だ。彼は大きな変革と希望をもたらすと思われたが、どこかで道を失った。就任後に財界が彼に資金をつぎ込んだ結果、彼は財界の改革にわずかしか手を付けず、『テロとの戦争』に至っては何も変わらなかった。彼は腹の中では支援者の落胆を理解している。だからこそ大衆運動は必要だ。ベトナム戦争中、ニクソンは北爆の強化やコロンビアの爆撃まで考えていたが、反戦運動が７３年の和平合意に結び付けた。レーガンは本気で『悪の帝国』（ソ連）を破壊したいと思っていたが、８３年にニューヨークから世界中に広がった反核運動が彼の態度を軟化させた。その意味で大衆運動が功を奏した」
　「沖縄は抗議を続けている。県民の声は効果をもたらした。人口は少ないが、今はみんなが沖縄を知っている。沖縄は『われわれは本当は日本の一部でもないし、米国の一部でもない。われわれは島の住民なんだ』と明確なメッセージを発するべきだ。（公民権運動指導者で共にノーベル平和賞を受賞した）マンデラ南アフリカ共和国元大統領やキング牧師のようなリーダーがいれば、素晴らしい結果が出るはずだ。ガンジーやキング牧師の行動原則である非暴力の闘いは『受動的』ではない。表に出て声を上げれば、たとえ腕を縛られ、逮捕され、殴られたとしても、それはとても積極的な抵抗運動だ」

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Interview with Mr. Oliver Stone

―You and Mr. Peter Kuznick(American University associate proffesor of history) derected the documentary series "Oliver Stone's Untold History of the United States" which focuses on the history of U.S. foreign policy such as nuclear weapons development competition.
What responses have you had in the United States or from abroad?

Mr.Oliver: We did far better than we expected. For me, coming from bigger media and films, movies, I was disappointed by the media, the American media’s reaction to the series. I thought that they were dismissive and ignored it.They did not see it as a serious history. It’s hard because we are not known as big historians. I’m a filmmaker. They look at me as a filmmaker and here I am, coming on to history and taking it all on, and changing it, I mean, taking an upside-down view and saying – This is American history, but what you learned in school is all screwed up. And, I switch it like this and say – Think about American history this way! It’s not easy for them to accept.

But Let me just say, that when the series came out I have to say, honestly, that Peter was very encouraged by most of the historians. Most of the historians were very positive. We were very lucky to get Showtime, which is premium cable, to do this and we had good results, surprising results. They didn’t much advertise. They did not expect a big market and we got 1.1 million viewers a week, on average. The encouraging thing was that the series started and stayed and went higher at the end, which is very rare, because most television series drop-off.As a result, I was able to get a deal with Warner Brothers, which is a big company, to distribute the film on DVD, the full 12 hours, in October of this year.That’s a big deal.

We got more attention, more serious attention in England, and we did very well in England. We also showed there.So I was encouraged by the more intelligent approach of the English Media, and that includes the more conservative papers like the telegraph and The Times, and that The Guardian was very good.The book sales in Japan were very good.Premium cable and NHK,smaller stations.It wasn’t the best or the widest show.It was late at night and they cut ten minutes or nine minutes out of each episode, but given the limitations, we did very well in Japan.

―When you considering the history and view of foreign countries,How do you see the U.S. History.

Mr.Oliver:Well, everything changes. Once you get into this history . . . You see, the reason I made The History, was because I knew that what I learned in school was not entirely true. That, like with every country, like with Japan, history gets covered up.

So, the atomic bombing of Japan, as with many other stories, in American history becomes a good thing, something that ends the war. And when you investigate it thoroughly, it was unnecessary bombing, not only strategically, but morally repulsive. It puts my country in a very poor light. This is an issue which bothers me no end. I was born in 1946. The bomb was always un-discussed. It was the right thing to do. It ended World War II.

And, when you understand that the Russian invasion of Japan played a significant role, perhaps the determinate role in Japan surrendering, it changes the entire equation, and you begin to look of the Soviet Union-U.S. rivalry, the Cold War, so to speak, as started by the U.S. right then and they’re in Japan.You see? Which I think is a good case, which we don’t even deal with in this country.

Some revisionist historians at the college level do deal with it, but not at the high school level. Not at the high school level. So, we have a “national myth.” The U.S. won World War II. The U.S. had to use the atomic bomb to end the war. These are two methods that we try to shatter. That is at the very beginning of the series. This is the kind of problem you have.

This is the kind of problem you have. But, we go all the way through Reagan, Bush, Obama, Eisenhower.We believe that this is what America has become. We have become a super fortress, a global security state, not a national security state but a global security state, with an empire unlike any in history, that controls the world.Most recently in the asylum seeking of Edward Snowden, you see United States again, exerting its will on every country in the world, to stop this man and not to let him fly into another country, not to seek asylum.

This is an amazing, amazing act of control. It shows you the control the United States exerts, especially in Europe, which is very . . . Except in South America, which is interesting, because in the old days, when I grew up, South America was under America’s thumb and Europe was independent. Now, unfortunately, Europe is under America’s thumb.

―In Okinawa,200,000 people lost their lives in World War II.And after the, after the war U.S. military bases in Japan are concentrated in Okinawa.you’re about to visit Okinawa,what is your image of Okinawa and what do you expect to see?

Mr.Oliver:It is clear to me now, that the United States has truly a unilateral relationship with Okinawa. The United States is more interested in keeping Okinawa probably that even the Japanese bases.It fits right into the U.S. global strategy of controlling all sea lanes, controlling China, the “pivot to China.”

I don’t really think the United States cares about that Okinawa belongs to Japan or not, and that’s another issue, but I really think the United States only cares about its relationship with Okinawa, because they wanted to use it like Guam. They want to use it like Pearl Harbor. And, Japan doesn’t care either. I don’t think Japan cares about Okinawa. Okinawa cares about Okinawa. I mean, Japan would say – Okay, you want to put all the bases on Okinawa? Fine!

Most Americans still see Okinawa simply as a battlefield in World War II, where the United States people lost a lot of soldiers and the Japanese were fanatic in resisting, but that it was a glorious battle, and we won. I don’t think that they even know that there is a difference between the Okinawan people and the Japanese people, and they certainly do not know that Okinawa was an independent Kingdom before, it was 1879, and that Japan occupied them. Okinawa is truly, I guess you would call it a Polynesian Island. I don’t know what you would call it, but it certainly exists in the same realm as Guam or the Philippines or Hawaii, all of which have been treated pretty badly by the United States and by the Japanese.

So, I’m going to Jeju Island also, in my trip.So it’s ironic, because I hadn’t planned it that way, but Jeju was added at the last second, and it’s similar to Okinawa, because it’s an island and they are being threatened by a huge development, this naval base being built, supposedly by the South Koreans, but really being done for the use of the United States on Jeju. They’re going to destroy the coral reef. They are going to use the biggest, deepest naval carriers in the fleet. The George Washington would be able to sail into Jeju, which means the end of the coral reef there, in that part of the island.

― The U.S. always advocates its constitution and founding principles of freedom, equality or democracy. And probably in Okinawa many people agree with the thinking,but the actual Situation in Okinawa is contradictory to that.

Mr.Oliver:It’s definitely a double standard and that is part of the reason that we made The Untold History, was to point out some of these contradictions. It’s very hard for me to accept that the American people just go along with this, because they’re comfortable, because the empire justifies itself. They don’t think about the costs to them, of this empire, that we pay these taxes.

In fact, on the Okinawan now the situation, the United States has a “sweetheart deal” because they get Japan to pay most of the money for Okinawan maintenance, which is interesting. We have the best deal of all in Okinawa. Japan pays most of these costs.

On top of that, our Status of Forces Agreement allows us to maintain independence inside on Okinawa. We have no responsibility beyond the judgment of our own military courts. That was the reason why we had to pull out of Iraq, according to many people, was because Iraq would not recognize the Status of Forces Agreement with the United States. And, the United States is terrified of being judged on an international tribunal, and I think it shows you that we are basically scared of being judge wrongly, and scared of our own actions.

― in The Untold History,you pointed out arms race of the Cold War era.And how do you see Rise of China now?Some people mention this as excuse of keeping The U.S. Bases on Okinawa.

Mr.Oliver:China certainly has a right to flex its muscles, but you know, unfortunately if you try to keep China down and say – You can’t flex your muscles . . . we’re going to have problems.I think you have to let a baby giant, you have to let it grow. China will have its own set of problems, but I don’t see China as the enemy. I see China as very smart, but I do think that they have some inherent problems. They’re not exactly a democracy. They have party-control issues. But, we have to get along. The world needs to be multi-polar. The United States cannot be the dominant power any longer.

This is a big issue, because, if you are number-one you don’t want to give up the position. That’s the mentality of capitalism. You’re number-one. See, no one in the United States ever asked – Why do we have to be in this race for arms all over the world? And, with the Soviet Union collapsing in 1991, that was a key moment to ask that question, but the United States never even thought about it and pursued its policy of hegemony all over the world and maintained this pace of military spending, as well as expanding the bases.

―Both in US and Japan, there have been occasions in which movements to seek “change” have influenced public opinions, polices and election results, but it is also often the case that leaders cannot deliver the “changes” that they promise. For example, Prime Minister Hatoyama’s failure to move Futena Air Station outside of Okinawa.

Mr.Oliver:This is where I think mass movements played a huge role. I mean, people matter. Mass movements give leaders backbone to fight.

Certainly Franklin Roosevelt felt population was behind him and that was why he was able to legislate very authoritatively, to tell the bankers that they should give up. themselves. It takes guts, because the banks run the world. He did it.

Henry Wallace. John Kennedy. John Kennedy was always aware of political opinion. He was very much a politician, but he felt like he knew he was going to win the 1964 Election. He knew it. He felt it. He felt like – I can do many of these things I want to do in 1964. I may not be popular, but I can do that after I get re-elected. He was the best chance we had after World War II, to really change things, and he was killed before the election, and I think that’s part of the reason he was killed.

Obama I think is very much the same case. I think Obama, again, was a candidate for great change and hope and somewhere, as we showed in Chapter 10 of our documentary, somewhere along the line he lost his way. By the time he became the president, after he had been elected, Wall Street, pharmaceutical companies, computer companies were financing him instead of the people. His deals with Wall Street were somehow in place, very little reform. On the War on Terror, nothing.

Minor, softer language, better management than Bush, but essentially transparency was not brought to government and no responsibility was brought to the eavesdropping and Snowden affair, et cetera. On the contrary, Obama has been harder on whistleblowers, harder on people who were trying to expose war crimes. So, this is where mass movements are important. Obama knows in his gut, that the people, some people on the left and had enough. I think to some degree that moderates his behavior.

But, there is no question that mass pressure is important. During the Vietnam War, Richard Nixon wanted to bomb of the North even more. He wanted to bomb Cambodia even more. He bombed enormously, but I think the protests, to some degree, curbed his appetite, and to some degree made the peace agreement possible in 1973. But Nixon was an extreme example of a leader who just did not pay attention to people.

That it’s very hard. Ronald Reagan paid more attention, because he was a war candidate. He wanted to really destroy the “evil empire”, but the protests, the nuclear protests in 1983 in New York and all around the country against what people felt was the coming of a new war, had a lot to do with Reagan starting to change. He softened. When Gorbachev came along, which was lucky for him, Reagan found himself in a completely opposite position of becoming a peacemaker. So the protests, the Nuclear Freeze Movement of 1983 did pay off.

And Occupy, to some degree, expressed our disgust with bankers. We mustn’t let up. We hope our series will be one of these things that will educate people. Who know? The children, the young people who are seeing our TV series, maybe one of them it’s going to see it and be moved, or more than one, and maybe one of those people is going to be a Martin Luther King or a Robert Kennedy or a Jack Kennedy, and maybe it will make a difference. Education is the only way. Consciousness is the only way to defeat this darkness of imperial power and domination.

Okinawan as keep marching. In Jeju, every day the Koreans . . . . This is a very tough government in Jeju, probably tougher than the Japanese Government. There are very tough. The arrest people and they beat them with sticks and put them in jail. These people have been protesting on Jeju Island for six years. Now, the naval base is still being dealt. You know, I’m going there and other people go. I mean, you hope with a little bit of water that suddenly the dam cracks, yeah? A little bit of water.

Okinawa, you guys have had an effect. You have stopped things from happening in Okinawa. You are a small population, but you get it. You are heard. Everyone now knows of Okinawa. Be very clear about what you mean, saying – We don’t really want to be part of Japan and certainly not part of the United States. Be very clear that – We are islanders! We are not part of Japan! Be very clear in that message.

It would be great if you had a good leader, somebody like a Nelson Mandela or Martin Luther King, who could clarify very clearly for the American people and the European people what it is that upsets you.I believe in the Gandhi and Martin Luther King principle of satyagraha, nonviolence. That’s not to say “passive.” Believe me, when you’re going out there and you link arms and you get arrested and beaten, it’s not passive. It’s very much active. There is active resistance, but nonviolent.