[Krieg]

Originally Posted by Forbin

IIRC, the Flying Tigers never engaged a Zero. The Zeke was a Navy fighter, and the Tigers operated over the mainland, meeting Japanese army aircraft like Oscars and Nates, and bombers like Nells and Sallys.

The Ki-43 Hayabusa (Oscar) was an amazing aircraft. We have one at the Museum of Flight at Boeing Field, here in Seattle.

Demiurge agrees: yeah, but they retired the Hurricanes in the DAF - had to be due to the conditions

Hurricanes were fully "tropicalized" for the conditions, thjat wasn't the problem. The 'Cane was first introduced in 1937, and by the time North Africa came around, it was obsolescent. They were beginning to suffer serious losses when clashing with the most recent iteration of the Bf-109, the 'F', and newer Italian fighters, such as the Folgore. The fighter-bomber versions, the "Hurribomber", lasted in theatre longer, as they were more for ground attack than useful as a fighter.

[Demiurge]

Originally Posted by Forbin

IIRC, the Flying Tigers never engaged a Zero. The Zeke was a Navy fighter, and the Tigers operated over the mainland, meeting Japanese army aircraft like Oscars and Nates, and bombers like Nells and Sallys.

They didn't fight them much, but Chennault actually wrote the book on how to beat the Zero. He saw them in action during the early days of the war in China when he was an advisor to Chiang Kai Shek. He wrote to tell Washington about how deadly they could be, but was ignored - a combination of Army bureaucracy and innate racism (the British had the same problem, no one believed the Japanese could produce such a weapon).

For the most part you are right, but I found a reference to a fight of Kunming where the AVG fought against A6M2s. Chennault created the boom and zoom tactics, but China and Britain wouldn't adopt them initially - they considered it cowardly.

The Flying Tigers successes made them change their mind.
http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/a6m.htm

The only bright spot during these dark days was the American Volunteer Group (AVG), better known as the Flying Tigers. They were first in battle on December 20, 1941 during a Japanese raid on Kunming. The P-40s flown by the AVG were faster than the Zero in level flight, but were much less maneuverable. It was soon concluded that it was suicide to try and out-maneuver a Zero, and AVG pilots found that they were able to take advantage of the superior diving speed and ruggedness of their P-40s. The tactics that most often achieved success were to first make sure the P-40s had a height advantage, dive down on the Zeroes, shoot, and then run as fast as you could. By the time that the AVG was absorbed into the 14th Air Force in early July of 1942, they had been credited with 286 Japanese aircraft destroyed in the air as against 13 pilots killed in aerial action

Clearly though the majority of those weren't Zeros - indeed, the term Zero became synonymous with 'japanese fighter'.


Some good stuff here too:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/p-40_vs_zero.htm

[Demiurge]

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_...o-Japanese_War

The Flying Tigers began to train in September 1941 in Taungoo, Burma. On 12 December 1941 the 3rd Squadron stationed in Rangoon joined the British Royal Air Force in defense of Rangoon. The 1st and 2nd Squadrons were sent to Kunming on 18 December, guarding Kunming and the Chinese section of the Burma Road against Japanese air attacks. On 20 December the Flying Tigers saw first action[19] in the skies of Kunming when the 1st and 2nd Squadrons intercepted a formation of Japanese planes on a bombing raid; the Flying tigers shot down nine of ten Japanese bombers and lost one P-40. Three days later, the Flying Tigers' 3rd Squadron inflicted comparable damage on a formation of Japanese planes on a bombing raid to Rangoon. For the next six months aerial battles of Flying Tigers' P-40s with Japanese Zero fighters were regular sights in the skies over south Yunnan and Burma.

When Rangoon fell to Japanese forces in early March 1942, Chennault withdrew all Flying Tigers squadrons to the base at Kunming. The Japanese Zero fighter was more maneuverable as compared to the Flying Tigers's P-40. However, the skills of the Flying Tigers' pilots were able to take advantage of the fast diving speed of the P-40s to gain an edge over the lighter Japanese Zero fighters. The American Volunteer Group was officially disbanded on 4 July 1942 when its one-year contract expired. The Group celebrated its final day by shooting down five Japanese fighters over Hengyang and escorting B-25 bombers of the United States Army Air Forces to bomb the Japanese air base at Guangzhou.[19] In the short period of some six months from 20 December 1941 to the beginning of July 1942, when the one-year contract of the American Volunteer Group expired, the Flying Tigers had flown on more than 50 combat missions, destroying 299 Japanese planes including bombers, A6M Zero and Nakajima Ki-43 fighters, and 153 probables; the Flying Tigers lost 12 planes in air battles and 61 on the ground; 13 pilots were killed and three were captured as prisoners of war.[19] Those were incredible records in aerial combat.

I remember reading that the AVG worked on a bounty system - they got paid per plane, but they also tended to record planes destroyed on the ground to inflate their numbers (and salaries). So the number is probably overstated in terms of records of flight kills, but still they did a hell of a job.

[shootER]

Originally Posted by Krieg

Hurricanes were fully "tropicalized" for the conditions, thjat wasn't the problem. The 'Cane was first introduced in 1937, and by the time North Africa came around, it was obsolescent. They were beginning to suffer serious losses when clashing with the most recent iteration of the Bf-109, the 'F', and newer Italian fighters, such as the Folgore. The fighter-bomber versions, the "Hurribomber", lasted in theatre longer, as they were more for ground attack than useful as a fighter.

Indeed. The Mark IID was even fitted with two 40mm cannon and used as a tank buster.

[MikeH92467]

Originally Posted by Forbin

IIRC, the Flying Tigers never engaged a Zero. The Zeke was a Navy fighter, and the Tigers operated over the mainland, meeting Japanese army aircraft like Oscars and Nates, and bombers like Nells and Sallys.

Whether the AVG engaged them or not, other official U.S. units did tangle with Zeroes in the Pacific theater. The ones that adopted the "boom and zoom" tactics were able to hold their own. But in any case, Chennault's admonition not to dogfight with Japanese fighters was an integral part of the AVG's training

ETA, here's something I came across that might be a little more authoritative than the Wikipedia entry: There also is confusion about the Japanese aircraft the AVG fought in Burma and China. Although most people realize that many Flying Tiger victories were against Japanese bombers, they often assume that the fighters the AVG faced were the Mitsubishi A6M Zeros of the Imperial Japanese Navy. However, all Zeros had been withdrawn from China by the time the war started. The most common fighter the Flying Tigers faced was the Japanese Army Air Force Ki-27 Nate. The Nate was a half a generation behind the P-40 and the Zero. It had non-retractable wheels. Although it was supremely maneuverable, it only had two rifle-caliber machine guns and was much slower than the P-40s of the AVG.

When the Ki-27s proved far inferior to the AVG’s P-40s, the Japanese deployed their new Ki-43 Hayabusa, which Americans codenamed Oscar. The Ki-43 was very similar to the Zero. It was about as fast as the Zero (and therefore still slower than the P-40), and about as maneuverable. Like the Zero and the Nate, the Oscar had two rifle-caliber machine guns. However, the Oscar lacked the Zero’s two additional cannon. LINK

[Forbin]

... who got the idea from...

Sharkmouths go all the way back to WWI.

EDIT: Ack. Obviously aimed at an earlier post.

[LizK]

Originally Posted by apostle83

I believe it, I'm just unaware of what parts are available for... Spitfires?

Might need to check with British American Museum. It is trying to save a lot of those beauties.

[Ancalagon]

Kinda random but on our run this morning I hear what is obviously a prop. Back home it'd be no big deal what with all the crop dusters and all. But in Seattle. No not common. So as we're running I'm scanning the skies...

"AH-HA! Found you you little bastard.... Huh.... Low wings, black cowell, white (looking) fuselage, and is that some red?" At that moment she banks away. "HOLY FUCK A ZERO!!!" I yell out, which totally threw my wife off as she was not privy to my other thoughts.

[ConfederateSon]

I like the twice a year air show at the local Marine Corp base because they bring in a lot of old WW1 and up planes. You can see them all fly and later you can sit in many of them and look at the rest of them while the pilot/owner tells you about his old war bird.

[Demiurge]

I have the great fortune of living near the national Air and Space Museum, both the original and the Udvar-Hazy Annex. Been to a couple of parties at the later - damn if it isn't a weird feeling to have martinis next to the actual Enola Gay.

Think I'll drag my family out there for Father's day this year. And then on to the local flying circus.