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[info]ratcreature

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how to draw female comic characters (according to Wizard)...
refrigerator
[info]ratcreature
September 24th, 2006
Current Mood:
apathetic
[info]brown_betty asked for examples "to illustrate the exactly how and why female comic characters are illustrated differently than the male." And I thought, really, what's better to illustrate these things than the books teaching the style in the first place?

A while ago I posted some scans from Wizard How To Draw series on drawing female superheroes (here and here), and I thought I'd post a bunch more from the first book of the series on "How To Draw: Heroic Anatomy".


As everything, it starts with the basics, i.e. proportions. First the male superhero


The female example is similar, but slightly different, notice how he stands firm and straight, wheras she stands with her hips cocked a little and the leg thrust forward?


Also notice in the direct torso comparison below, how the male one is ramrod straight, but she curves and leans just a little bit in the same pose?


Now onwards to the chapter "Sultry Women". It even cautions you against overposing! Yes, it's not as if Wizard wasn't aware of the problems! (Their definition and mine of which poses are already overposed might differ slightly though, heh.)





Next, Michael Turner explains "Sex Appeal". (Or what he thinks sex appeal is.) Incidentally it also illustrates the meaning of "overposed" that was brought up in the previous chapter very effectively...





Finally for compare and contrast purpuses the chapters on "Superheroic Men" and "Superheroic Women". For the male superhero it is all about more or less ridiculously enlarged muscles as we learn:





Female superheroes don't have it that easy, they need to worry about tilting their shoulder, nipple and pubic lines attractively at all times, not to mention legs, breast size, eye make-up and hair:






ETA (11 April 2010): Thanks to LJ's new comment option I can now freeze the post without deleting previous comments. I'm sorry I'll be missing out on some interesting comments, but I'm sick of getting offensive, sexist drivel dumped in my journal in a years old post.
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( 437 comments )
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[info]brown_betty

2006-09-24 05:38 pm (UTC)

Man. "I just woke up and I'm happy to see you?" More like, "I just woke up, put on my jewelry, eyeliner, and combed out my hair, and my expression of happy-to-see-you."
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-24 06:00 pm (UTC)

Yes, there's that. But that just shows that female superheroes have to worry aout more than just the muscles, like for example maintaining that backbreaking S-line with the torso while displaying their pubic line attractively...
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)
Cry me a river — (Anonymous) — Expand
Why Hate? iTs good art — (Anonymous) — Expand
Feminisim. — (Anonymous) — Expand

[info]brown_betty

2006-09-24 05:40 pm (UTC)

Michael Turner keeps on saying "subtle." I don't think that word means what he thinks it means.
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]lord_dingsi

2006-09-24 06:53 pm (UTC)

I also wonder why the text says that you shouldn't feel like having to add a butt shot on every page, while the drawing shows... a butt shot?

I used to like Michael Turner's style. During the early Witchblade. I was a teenager and totally amazed by the use of computer-coloured art and effects. It was all so shiny! Everybody looked so pretty!

Nowadays I look at it and... cringe. The legs. The collagen lips. The big boobs. The blandness of their faces. It's practically the opposite of what I consider to be sexy.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)
(no subject) — (Anonymous) — Expand

[info]brown_betty

2006-09-24 05:55 pm (UTC)

I love that the the chapter on "Super-heroic" women includes how to draw hair.
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-24 06:03 pm (UTC)

Well, especially since it is even less useful than the extra chapter on hair earlier in the book (which sadly also only includes long hair on female examples, which quite frankly I find easier to draw with its strands and such than short haircuts).
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

[info]katarik

2006-09-24 06:01 pm (UTC)

... Y'know, all this stuff he's saying about keeping it subtle and unforced?

Yeah. Right. Which is why the bodies are all twisty and 'look at me!' Because he's subtle.

(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-24 06:10 pm (UTC)

Yeah, he probably believes they're not "overposed" as well...
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

[info]lord_dingsi

2006-09-24 06:46 pm (UTC)

Okay, I tried twice now to write a comment, but my internet connection isn't working properly and keeps logging me off in the middle of a sentence. So I'll make this very, very short.

1. RAGE.
2. "Sexy" is a relative term.
3. Thinky thoughts. Note to self: Write meta about comic art and the interconnection of sex, art, and homophobia a.k.a. "finding art beautiful is directly related to your sexual preference, so we can't draw pretty men because we don't want to appeal to TEH GAY".
4. Did I mention RAGE?

Also, what went wrong that they show us three men ranging from very muscular to RIDICULOUSLY MUSCLED and add "yet all appear correct and believable"?!
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-24 07:00 pm (UTC)

Well, I guess he meant "believable" in the way that mosters and dragons can be drawn believably, not that they were all believable *humans*. Just that he thought they all still looked kind of cool and not ridiculous. These ideas get further explained in the next book, where in the chapter on "Super Men" you get the sections on increasing proportions of the body mass, strike poses, muscle layers and heroic faces, whereas the chapter on "Super Women" has such riveting subtitles as "rack'em up"...
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

Emphasis mine, but.

[info]thete1

2006-09-24 06:53 pm (UTC)

When a reader feels that the lady on the comic is looking at him and no one else in the shop...

Girls don't have to look overly aggressive or angry to be sexy. Cute can be very sexy, too...

When drawing the female character in action, be sure to keep her feminine looking...

I think I need to puke. I really, really do.
(Frozen) (Thread)

Re: Emphasis mine, but.

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-24 07:07 pm (UTC)

Yeah, I get the puking impulse. But I think these are really useful to show that the sexism doesn't just happen sometimes or accidentally, but it is intentional and taught as part of the "style". Also it for me more transparent here, because it is highlighted rather than just one part of a larger panel.

Book four of this series has a whole bunch of people talking about covers and you can read Frank Cho explain all about finding the best porn pose...
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)
Re: Emphasis mine, but. — (Anonymous) — Expand

[info]cereta

2006-09-24 06:59 pm (UTC)

When the college president came to my office, we looked at the Hush Heroes poster I have on my wall, comparing Nightwing's stance to Huntress's. For fun, we tried to stand the way she's standing. Neither of us could do it.

I love that poster, but yeah.
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-24 07:09 pm (UTC)

You probably have to be a contortionist to have any chance at all to achieve some of these...
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

[info]miriam_heddy

2006-09-24 07:55 pm (UTC)

Victoria's Secret has just come out with some new commercials, and, as always, I was stunned by the truly odd poses they place the models in.

Most of them resemble those drawings.

VS models seem to have uniformly very thin bodies, large chests, and very long torsos, with the lack of natural curves being obscured by exaggerated twists and turns of the pose (so that, rather than having hips that curve out, they jut their bones outward to make that S shape).

Right now, I'm in the middle of watching Season 2 of Queer as Folk, and it's funny to see that and read the advice on drawing, particularly watching Justin's drawings and QaF's discussion of the queer aesthetic in comics.
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-24 08:08 pm (UTC)

Maybe the comic artists use VS models as reference? I mean, in the chapter on photo reference in book two swimsuit magazine are mentioned as useful, and I guess those might not be too different from underwear ads?
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

[info]glockgal

2006-09-24 08:12 pm (UTC)

Turner: Full lips are very sexy and that's probably why people get collagen implants

People? PEOPLE???? Because there are soooo many guys out there wandering around with giant tumorous collagen lips, right Mike Turner?

ARRRRGGGG.

And just the mere fact that they got Jim Balent to apparently be their expert on drawing women makes their point stupid and moot. I know once Wizard actually got Terry Moore to do one of these "How to Draw..." It pretty much is exactly the opposite of what these people are saying. Except Kevin Maguire; the stuff he says isn't as bad as the rest.

But thanks for posting this, LUV! It's always fun to rant. *hee*
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-24 08:23 pm (UTC)

They reprinted Terry Moore's article too, I just had already scanned and linked part of that in a previous entry. Seriously, some of the chapters in the series are really interesting, in particular I liked quite a lot of the third volume on storytelling that has really neat stuff about dramatic tension and pacing (I shared those chapters here and here in case you're interested), and I gleaned some cool things from various chapters about inking... so it's not like it's only rant worthy. It's just there's some really awful stuff too.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

[info]jemppu

2006-09-24 08:48 pm (UTC)

FunnySad, how in the structure part, next to the female body, the expressions are shown on a male face... because, it's a known fact no-one needs to learn to draw females with expression. Different shades of lipstick are perfectly fine to tell us what mood they're in.

*overload of NO!*
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-24 09:08 pm (UTC)

Well, in the chapter on facial expressions it is stressed that you should use caution with including too many lines showing expression in womens faces because it looks like wrinkles... Which is kid of true in such a reductionist style, but guys look older through face lines too, and it is depressing that that is the only thing they used female heads as illustration for in the expression chapter. (Well, there is one other female head shows, besides the two examples for the aging effect, but 16 male heads.)
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

[info]sockich

2006-09-24 09:11 pm (UTC)

Thank you for posting this.

I'm shaking with rage and disappointment and disgust and I want to cry, but I am so very thankful you posted this, because actually makes me feel the anger I knew I should have been feeling all along and...yeah, thank you.

And I want to say how angry this makes me, but more eloquent people have said it a lot better than me and I'm still stuck in the wanting to scream, now stage of it all.
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-24 09:31 pm (UTC)

I find comic drawing books show the roots for the feelings of a killing rage more plainly than random comic panels, because they focus on the basics. They even break it down into neat bullet point lists...
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)
haha — (Anonymous) — Expand

[info]ebonbird

2006-09-24 09:11 pm (UTC)

Thank you for this. :)
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]vassilissa

2006-09-24 10:41 pm (UTC)

Thank you for posting these.

That panel with the lipstick, and the. *shakes* I nearly threw up. I want to hurt someone over that.

I nearly put my fist through my own monitor. Oh dear. I'd better remind myself that I don't have to angry to be attractive, cute works too, especially because it has that vulnerability to it. *winds fist back again*

And now I know that if you 'play hard to get,' this means you have a 'bad attitude'... but that's all right, because it's sexy. (If 'no' actually *meant* no, that wouldn't be OK, naturally.) *spits* Flirting tips from Wizard.

I note, by the way that if you hit someone with your fist at the angle that guy on the 'joints' section is using, you'd sprain your wrist and it wouldn't even hurt them.

"Finally, take a gander at the ultra-muscleman on the right. His musculature is exaggerated to superheroic standards in size and proportion. We have no trouble believing this guy can leap tall buildings and toss cars around like popcorn."

I'm not sure about the cars or the buildings, but i have trouble believing he can wash his back, tie his shoes, or even wipe his own arse without assistance. And I hope those pecs are firm, because he *definitely* couldn't do up his own bra strap.

...his creator-owned Tarot: Witch of the Black Rose series.

Oh. Tarot. This explains everything. I've seen that in the $1 bin. The cover art scared me nearly out of the store.
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-24 10:50 pm (UTC)

I think my expectation for the representation of women in Wizard publications was so low to begin with that I didn't even bother to be truly angry anymore.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)
iditos — (Anonymous) — Expand

[info]petronelle

2006-09-24 10:46 pm (UTC)

This is infuriating and nauseating. These are *awesome* examples of the idiocy being discussed, and each one makes me want to hit people.

I cannot believe anyone pays Jim Balent to draw breasts, let alone holding him up as the acme of breast-drawing. Has the man ever seen one? Goodness.
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-24 10:54 pm (UTC)

Yeah, I think it's more obvious and easier to recognize when it's broken down like that in drawing books. Not that it is hard to see in many comics themselves, but here it is spelled out explicitly and explained, so you don't just see the result but how and why it got there.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

[info]violetfishy

2006-09-24 11:56 pm (UTC)

The fact that it is repeated that women should "not look posed" yet every goddamn one of them is posing in an unnatural way...

Y'know, it kinda makes me want to laugh...because otherwise I'd just cry.
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-25 12:01 am (UTC)

Heh. Yeah, they just dig themselves in deeper...
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

[info]apey1013

2006-09-25 02:29 am (UTC)

*head is so very desky* ARG!

So, lemme get a few things straight here (since I'm too pissed off to go into furthur detail than that):

1) WTF about any of those absudly muscular men says "grace" to these people?!
2) WHY is there no section on sultry men?
3) WHY are there no mentions of men in the "Sex Appeal" section?
4) NO human's body could possibly curve into several fo those positions.
5) WHY is there so much more emphasis on the face and hair of the women than the men? They talk about the eyes alone in several places!
6) WTF is up with these jerks pointing out how very feminist-friendly their art is when it totally fucking isn't? "Don't overpose! That's bad. Just bend them in crazyily uncomfortable and unnatural positions. Don't ever let the women have correct posture, either. We all know women's spines are curved in a natural 's'-shape that doesn't allow them to stand up straight!"
7) Best of all, HOW can they think a skimpy bikini leaves anything to the imagination?

WHY?WHY?WHY?WHY?
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-25 07:45 am (UTC)

I have honestly no idea why they think these things. You know, in the book about "Character Creation" they have a section on "Super Men" (mostly about muscles) and "Super Women" (mostly about boobs") as is expected, but what what threw even me (and my expectations wrt women in Wizard publications are so low I thought I couldn't be surprised anymore) was that in the other chapters "Costumed Vigilantes", "Brutes", "Armored Villains" and "Sidekicks" not a single woman is to be seen, they are in the chapter titled "Vixens" (which funnily enough despite its title features examples of the smallest breasts I have seen in Wizard and the "vixen" is fully clothed with no skin showing anywhere but in the lower half of the face, as the artist in this chapter stresses that "slinky sexy super-chicas need to look good, but that doesn't mean they have to look like they're at the beach"). The only chapter on character archetypes featuring both men and women is "Acrobats". And okay, I can see that the stock character "brute" isn't typically a woman, but sidekicks or costumed vigilantes? Incidentally the only clearly black character in the whole book is in the "Brutes" chapter as well, right next to the gorilla villains...
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)
(no subject) — (Anonymous) — Expand
(no subject) — (Anonymous) — Expand
are u serious? — (Anonymous) — Expand
Re: are u serious? — (Anonymous) — Expand
Re: are u serious? — (Anonymous) — Expand

[info]morchades

2006-09-25 02:46 am (UTC)

You're wonderful for posting this.
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]littledarkvoice

2006-09-25 02:55 am (UTC)

A lot of people have said a lot of things I wanted to say, and more intelligently than I could manage. Still, THIS is why, when I was six years old and my mother called me "cute", I'd pitch a fit until she never told me I was "cute" again. If I was cute, I couldn't be badass, and I wanted to be badass.

You know, I have to write up a model of an ancient Greco-Roman curse for one of my Classics courses this semester, and I think Wizard Magazine's going to be my target.

*curls up in a corner to listen to the Spice Girls*
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-25 07:48 am (UTC)

You know, I have to write up a model of an ancient Greco-Roman curse for one of my Classics courses this semester, and I think Wizard Magazine's going to be my target.


Heh. Good luck with that. *g*
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

[info]havocthecat

2006-09-25 03:10 am (UTC)

Hello. I was browsing my way around LJ and found this. Dude. I'm appalled.

Thanks for posting, though. It's helpful to be reminded of why I roll my eyes and get annoyed at comics even more these days.
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-25 08:17 am (UTC)

Yeah, it is really helpful that Wizard was kind enough to provide such a concise and clear overview of the rage inducing things...
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

[info]niqaeli

2006-09-25 05:17 am (UTC)

I... I know I should be angry. Enraged, something. Mostly, though, I look at it, and I feel *tired*. I feel like, we've fought this so much, so long, and it's still here. Still ingrained into the culture.

I have to remind myself that things *are* better than they used to be. I have to tell myself that. I have to remind myself that giving up and hiding in a corner *won't* change anything. Won't make anything better for me or for other women.

But there are days I *wish* for the isolationist lesbian colony on Mars. Or maybe Pluto. Pluto's far enough away. And I like men, honestly. I'm engaged to one I love very much. *sigh*
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-25 07:57 am (UTC)

Well FWIW I don't really feel angry about this anymore either. I mean, I didn't read superhero comics for the longest time because of their sexism and other ideological problems I have with them, and just stuck with European and alternative US comics (which can of course also be sexist and appalling, but there's a larger variety of styles and genres), but in the end fan pimping on LJ got me into superheroes after not having read more than half a dozen in my first two decades as comic fan. And I made a decision beforehand to mostly just ignore what makes me unhappy, as I was fully aware of all the problems I'd have before getting into it.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)
(no subject) — (Anonymous) — Expand

[info]arcana_j

2006-09-25 04:06 pm (UTC)

Gah! This is classic, goddamn Wizard. A few years back when Wizard had a website, they had a get-your-work-critiqued-by-a-pro feature. In one issue, their "pro" *koff*DanFraga*koff* critiqued the work of one Tonya Bennet (aka Harly Sparx.) Among his many dubious artistic pearls of wisdom, he told her to,

"Draw heroes like someone you'd like to be and heroines like someone you'd like to date."

I was so enraged by his assumptions and lousy advice that I emailed her and told her not to listen to his bullshit. Especially when his own take on human anatomy was grotesque.
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]starrai

2006-09-25 04:30 pm (UTC)

Heh. Ya know, that's exactly what I always say when someone trots out the old "but the guys are exploited too! In their spandex with the bulging muscles." No, the guys are drawn as chaste power fantasties because that's who the fanbase wants to BE and the women are drawn as impossible supermodel sexpots because that's who the fanbase wants to DO. The Other is just so obvious in that mode of thinking.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

Oh Wizard.

[info]sylv_

2006-09-25 06:16 pm (UTC)

Wizard writer 1: "It's a shrinking market out there. How can we get more people into comics? Girls, for insance?"

Wizard writer 2: "I don't know Ben. Say, is that new drawing guide where we assume in the narration that none of our readers or potential comic book artists willing to learn from our advice are female ready yet?"

Wizard writer 1: "Uh huh."

Wizard writer 2: "Does it have some awkward basement-dwelling-looser humor that shrieks I have never felt the soft caress of a woman other than my mother?"

Wizard writer 1: "Does it ever!"
(Frozen) (Thread)

Re: Oh Wizard.

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-25 09:21 pm (UTC)

Yeah, they are kinda hopeless, aren't they?
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

ugh..

[info]logan_san

2006-09-25 07:55 pm (UTC)

::saw you linked on [info]bookslut::

::read::

::grimaced::

::friended you::

hoping that's okay.
(Frozen) (Thread)

Re: ugh..

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-25 09:22 pm (UTC)

I'm thrilled when people friend me and give reading my LJ a try. :)
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Two Things

[info]cracknotebook

2006-09-25 09:10 pm (UTC)

1. While many males have NO NIPPLES WHATSOEVER and can be drawn as unclothed shapes without genetalia, most females are nipped out in binikis even while posing as shape models. Because females never lose their sexuality, while comic book males are eunuch-like.
2. A barely-muscled female I can deal with, but the female superheroes section has ribcage showing! Maybe becaue they are contorted and skinny?
Thanks a lot for posting. It was cathartic to rage over.
(Frozen) (Thread)

Re: Two Things

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-25 09:19 pm (UTC)

while comic book males are eunuch-like.

It's probably all those hormones that they need to take for those muscles that make their dicks shrivel up and die... *g*
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

[info]remix17

2006-09-25 09:17 pm (UTC)

*SCREAM*

He likes "cute" eh? I'LL show the mutherfucker cute! Chauvinist piece of scum.

*so unhappy*
(Frozen) (Thread)

[info]ratcreature

2006-09-25 10:32 pm (UTC)

Maybe it'll help to read some cool comics to clean your palate?
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)
(no subject) — (Anonymous) — Expand
what the hell man? — (Anonymous) — Expand
( 437 comments )
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