I had a hell of a time last night – in good and bad ways.
The good came first. The ApacheCon lightning talks were, as usual, hilarious. The talented Paul Fremantle brought out his tinwhistle and I danced an only-slightly off-time hornpipe. Bertrand revealed the secrets of the members@ mailing list with a speaking chorus. A crazy person with a graphing calculator and a psychedelic three-ring binder gatecrashed and spoke about no-one’s sure what. Ross, Paul and I did an “Ask Me!” talk. Leo, Rich, Shane filled their five minutes in traditional and hilarious and moving fashions. Jean-Frederic had us saying Hello World in more languages than I could count. We laughed as we counted hesitations, repetitions and deviations. It was great.
The party moved up to my room. We had beer, and beer pong, and altogether too many people crammed in. It was more egalitarian than I remember last year’s being – lots of new people, lots of people who weren’t part of the old Apache guard. A charming Southern gentleman with the most awesome belt I’ve ever seen (Carl, where did you get that!?), an excited Berliner who picked me up and whirled me around and somehow managed to avoid having me kick anyone in the head. I lay across the bed, sat on laps, generally tried to squish in to any available space and get time to talk to all the fabulous people thronging the place.
At some point, it was too late and too loud to reasonably continue. Everyone cleared out (Nick, you are a *god*, for spending the extra five minutes to clear the carnage, so that I could wake up in a room that showed no signs of what had happened the night before!), and we headed to the Irish pub next door that has become our local.
Some food, a few more beers. Squeezing everyone up so I could sit next to someone I wanted to talk to. Laughing at the events of the week, and the night.
And then I went to the loo, and as I was about to go in, Florian Leibert, who had been speaking in the Hadoop track, called me over, and asked if he could talk to me.
I’m on the board of Apache. I’m responsible for our conferences. I work on community development and mentoring. If you’re at an Apache event and you want help, information, encouragement, answers, I will always do my best to provide. So this wasn’t an unusual request, and it wasn’t one I expected to end the way it did.
He brought me in to the snug, and sat up on a stool. He grabbed me, pulled me in to him, and kissed me. I tried to push him off, and told him I wasn’t interested (I may have been less eloquent, but I don’t think I was less clear). He responded by jamming his hand into my underwear and fumbling.
I broke away, headed back to the group, and hid behind some of the bigger, burlier infra guys, while Bill sorted out all the people who’d left stuff in my room, so that I could reasonably escape. We headed back, people got their stuff, Bill stayed around, and I slept.
When Bill woke up, I pretended to still be asleep, because I couldn’t deal with speaking to anyone. I sent a mail to our planning committee to say that I’d been assaulted. Charel came to talk to me, and then I e-mailed Nick, who came up and helped me sort things out so I could get to the keynote and feel safe. Florian didn’t turn up today, and it’s probably for the best.
I had a few drinks. I was wearing a skirt of such a length that I had cycling shorts on under it to make me feel more comfortable getting up on stage and dancing. I had been flirting with a couple of other boys at the party.
It’s not the first time something like this has happened to me, at all. It’s not the first time it’s happened to me at a tech conference. But it is the first time I’ve spoken out about it in this way, because I’m tired of the sense that some idiot can ruin my day and never have to answer for it. I’m tired of the fear. I’m tired of people who think I should wear something different. I’m tired of people who think I should avoid having a beer in case my vigilance lapses for a moment. I’m tired of people who say that guys can’t read me right and I have to read them, and avoid giving the wrong impression.
But I don’t give the wrong impression, and it’s simply not true that guys can’t read me right. I don’t want to be assaulted, and the vast majority of guys read that just fine. It is not my job to avoid getting assaulted. It is everyone else’s job to avoid assaulting me. Dozens of guys succeeded at that job, across the week. In the pub, in the stairwell, on the MARTA, in my bedroom.
One guy failed, and it’s his fault.
ETA: My heartfelt thanks to the Atlanta police for their sensitivity and professionalism.
You did the right thing in reporting it. And you did the right thing in calling the person who assaulted you, out by name. You have the right to wear whatever you deem is reasonable and interact with people however you wish. No means no. If a person can’t control themselves around other people or when they have had too much, then they need to correct that.
The real tragedy here is that ALL such assaults aren’t reported and the perp called out.
It boggles the mind that ANYONE would compare getting your genitals groped to be even in the same ballpark as being sneezed on. But then again, it’s that kind of “what’s the big deal” attitude that encourages and fosters such assaults.
People, men and women, should be able to keep their hands of off other people who don’t want that kind of attention. No means no. Stop means stop. It doesn’t mean “keep trying”.
The issue of everyone drinking alot/etc… is a non issue. If you are having a good time with people you know and trust, getting assaulted, or raped, shouldn’t be something you have to be constantly on guard about. If it is… you have to ask yourself the question, what’s wrong with the folks I’m with that I’m worried they’ll do that.
People should report it when they get assaulted. Being shamed/attacked by people and putting the blame on the victim is just plain stupid and disgraceful.
Love that you called out this guy. If you posted about a robbery or any other kind assault, everyone else would be loving it too.
I am not sure this is really an area for law enforcement, but how anyone could tell you not to write about your own experience is beyond me. Fuck the haters.
[...] Accuses Twitter Engineer Of Sexual Assault, Trial By Twitter Commences," based entirely on a single blog post by a female Google geek detailing an unwelcome sexual advance from a male Twitter [...]
Noirin, thank you so much for speaking out in the multitude of ways you have and working through the pain to report him and do what needed to be done.
You’re totally right. It isn’t you’re responsibility to avoid assault, its everyone else’s to avoid assaulting. I don’t think it could have been put any better.
I would also submit that this is unfortunately par for the course in alot of the industry in as much as inappropriate behaviour in general is concerned.
My partner works through alot of things that are hugely sexist where she works in the tech industry, as she’s one of two women who work in that department. What many people don’t see when things like this happen are the calls and chats home to a loved one, to keep them together or to simply vent as a result. this kind of behaviour is just horrible on all accounts.
Thing is, it is just a hop across that line of talk to action and I think this is another reason that the gender bias needs to be addressed in the industry, whether at the office or at conferences.
I see talk here and there of people saying maybe you shouldn’t have talked about this on a blog, but honestly I’m glad you did, because talking is what allows people to work through their feelings, and as a woman who hears the comments and worries about if or when those comments are gonna lead to bad acts, I’m hopeful that by doing this it continues to open up awareness across the industry.
I hope you’re working through this and know that we’ve got your back.
I am so sorry for what you’ve gone through. Ignore the cowards leaving the abusive comments. They’re just showing what kind of people are out there.
“The attitude inherent in your comment– your default assumption that it’s *not* okay to say what happened or name names– is EXACTLY THE REASON WHY it isn’t the first time it happened.”
That’s why a lot of assaults on women don’t get reported.
[...] IncidentUpdateCancelThis topic relates to the assault alleged within Noirin's blog post at:http://blog.nerdchic.net/archive…This topic relates to the assault alleged within Noirin's blog post [...]
You are an attention whore. It’s cunts like you that make it difficult for real women like me to get anywhere in the tech industry. Please die in a fire.
[...] something like this could always do with more [...]
[...] Google Technical writer Noirin Shirley was allegedly sexually assualted by Florian Leibert from Twit… He brought me in to the snug, and sat up on a stool. He grabbed me, pulled me in to him, and kissed me. I tried to push him off, and told him I wasn’t interested (I may have been less eloquent, but I don’t think I was less clear). He responded by jamming his hand into my underwear and fumbling. [...]
Oh, Dom.
There is the biology of the reptilian brain and the stuff that it slideshows to us nonstop; and then there is alcohol. The result of mixing both is not pretty,
That’s called: clouding the argument with unrelated garbage.
but this is no excuse for what happened, enough said.
Oh, now it’s okay that you said that! My apologies. Here’s an inflammatory, off-message statement, but now I’m going to absolve myself of writing it.
What you wrote there is actually the exact kind of thing that Noirin doesn’t need. It’s unsupportive and, quite honestly, demonstrative of the typical male attitude to her accusation. So by calling out typical males, you’ve made one of the ‘typical male’ mistakes and made the rest of us look bad. Thanks.
Advice to all males reading this: go read Fugitivus’ blog, now.
After your performance earlier in the comment, I don’t think you speak for me or to me.
*women are different*
Yet more! Quit while you’re ahead.
The “trial by Twitter” angle is for the peanut gallery
A peanut gallery which you are very much a part of, need I remind you. You do not get to promote yourself above “common commenter” any more than the rest of us do. Your unsupportive comment doesn’t make you a valued contributor, it’s just yet another comment.
(this guy deserves every bit of his reputation ruined, at least
until he offers apologies that you would accept)
Because you get to make that call! Who the hell are you to determine the course of another person’s life, based upon one person’s testimony? Thank you for demonstrating the entire reason I’m speaking out like I am. After reading this, you threw ‘allegedly’ out the window, drew a conclusion you are not entitled to make because you do not know the person in question, and convicted him in your own court of public opinion. This is exactly the problem and the reason I wrote what I did. You are the problem, Dom.
Also, this: Please don’t listen to anyone telling you that you did wrong by naming and shaming no matter how reasonable his or her argument might seem.
Things like that are entirely why my argument is necessary. My argument is reasonable (thanks!), but dismiss it outright because of the specifics of the situation? Don’t respect a valid and important point because you’re hurt?
I make a lot of concessions in said argument to indicate that it isn’t about the alleged assault. Naming and shaming is irresponsible, no matter what the circumstances, no matter what the accusation, no matter who is involved. Just because this is an alleged sexual assault with a lot of pain does not mean we throw arguments like mine out the window.
[...] into controversy. This past Friday, Noirin Shirley, a technical writer at Google, wrote on her personal blog about being sexually assaulted at the ApacheCon tech conference in Atlanta: He brought me in to the [...]
Kevin, that’s acknowledging that there is an issue and indicating she thought about it, not addressing it.
Here by way of a link on Jim C. Hines’ LJ. So very sorry for your experience, and applause at your courage for speaking out.
But I’ve gotta say — ummm… Jor-El? You are seriously equating sneezing in someone’s face with putting hands down pants!?
At the very least, remind me never to go with you to a salad bar.
So, so sorry about what my kin did to you (I’m a male). There is the biology of
the reptilian brain and the stuff that it slideshows to us nonstop; and then
there is alcohol. The result of mixing both is not pretty, but this is no excuse
for what happened, enough said.
There is more to it, though, unfortunately: Fugitivus is completely, shockingly right. I read her blog from
cover to cover, and I must admit I couldn’t make myself believe that this
attitude of denial towards testimony of sexual assault could happen outside of
poor and drug-ridden neighborhoods. But the comments, in this thread, and all
the other blogs that mention (or should I say downplay) the facts? And these are
techie people, supposedly educated!
Advice to all males reading this: go read Fugitivus’ blog, now. Don’t be part of
the problem through ignorance. Don’t buy the gender theory BS that is all the
rage this day, *women are different*. Crossing physical boundaries with them
can hurt them badly. And their first reaction won’t be to involve the police.
And if they do tell you, your first reaction should be to believe them; and then
to feel honored from the trust they just demonstrated to you.
Kudos Noirin for airing this out. The “trial by Twitter” angle is for the
peanut gallery (this guy deserves every bit of his reputation ruined, at least
until he offers apologies that you would accept). You decided to stand up for a
right of yours that is being trampled upon, and making it public is what can
make a difference. Best of luck for weathering the unfolding shit storm.
@Noirin: my sympathies. Thank you for airing this in the community in order to attempt to bring some positive discussion and perhaps change out of your traumatic experience.
I have tried to live my life as a counter example for “all men are pigs.” However, if we men continue to foster, or fail to counter, this permissive environment that “boys will be boys” as exemplified by Noirin’s assailant, and the degenerate trolls that have crawled from under their rocks to post here and elsewhere, how will this abuse ever end? Noirin’s post here is just another tragic call for men to police their own behavior.
This isn’t a legal matter. This is a matter of ethics, morality and standing up for what’s right. For the trolls, I’ll try to use small words that you should have learned in pre-school.
1. KEEP YOUR HANDS TO YOURSELF.
2. IF YOU DON’T HAVE SOMETHING NICE TO SAY, DON’T SAY IT.
@Kevin Marks, right on. Excellent guide.
Now, I don’t get out to too many tech conferences — and don’t usually drink heavily when I do — but I had no idea this kind of problem was so prevalent.
Most cons I’ve been to are sausage fests, so when an attractive girl walks into the room, it is usually all eyes on her…But so many techies are hesitant to even *talk* to women, I just naturally assumed that none of them would ever go so far as grope them against their will.
I understand the argument that people do stupid things when they get a few beers in them, but no matter how drunk you are, when a girl tells you no and/or resists contact, you know you should back the hell off.
I’m sorry this happened to you, and to hear that this happens so often in the OSS community makes my blood boil.
To Jor-El and many other men who think “hands down pants, what’s the big fucking deal?”… See, the problem is not just the gesture, it’s the trauma, the prison it keeps you into for the many years to follow, wondering when will be the next time a drunken jerk shoves his hands down your pants. I take it, Jor-El that you are a man, most likely a straight man. Imagine a world where half the population would be composed of very big, very tall, very hairy, occasionally drunk but always very horny gay men. And these men, once in a while when you cross one of them at a party with some friends, or walking down your neighborhood, would launch at you, shove his hands down your pants and fumble on your parts while trying to give you a big wet kiss. How would that make you feel? How free would you be to go out of your house? Would you be worryless ever again in your life? Or would you say “oh yeah, just another big drunk man and his hands down my pants, big fucking deal”…
Hi Noirin, I think you did the correct thing to raise the issue and mark other people’s card for the future. The fact that some of the commenters below think that unbelievably some men (I presume) think it ok to do anything to anyone against their will bears out the need for it to be spelt out to them. Some commenters entirely miss the point, they cite this lady sitting on laps due to lack of space as some sort of assault on her part. Hardly, for one I’m certain she didn’t leap on them from the rafters and would have leapt up in a second if asked to do so, secondly any adult male could remove her immediately if he felt uncomfortable, this is not the case in the reverse situation. For example, I was once in a pub and quite out of the blue a (very drunk) young lady attempted to grab my penis in a playful manner, being a good deal larger than her I felt no fear of her or further advances and left her company nursing sore nuts but no psychological harm – my point being was that for me and my friends that experience is just a funny story but had it happened in reverse I can imagine it can be a humiliating and life shattering event, we must treat people as individuals not as if they were you.
This is Edward from the GSoC Mentor’s Summit. I just found your blog, though I wish I had done so under better conditions.
I appreciate your courage in speaking out. I know a number of women with similar tech conference experiences who have just “let it go” and stayed silent and I think this is a much more productive direction, as it puts other people on notice that this isn’t acceptable behavior.
I’m sorry this happened to you and glad you are making it public.
Norin,
I don’t know you, nor do I know anyone else involved. Nevertheless, I applaud your bravery and support without question your right to make the choices you made in publishing this.
Thanks for speaking out, raising the issue.
But why – on this comments page/Ads by Google/ -is there a bare chested man in white underwear on this page?! INSULTING to you and what happened. 11/8/10. 10 a.m EST
Good for you for speaking out, for naming names, for going to the police, and for managing to get away from the asshole. Other women in his presence should know that they’re in the presence of a sexual predator, and maybe knowing will also make a difference in how some of the men — the ones with a clue, rather than the ones in denial and the ones that think that rape culture is a good thing — interact with him too.
You are so brave. I’m sorry to see the comments; I can’t even stand to read most of them. You stood up for yourself and did us proud. Don’t let anyone take this away from you.
Jed Smith: In your post you seem very sure that Noirin has made a mistake. I point out the following comments you made:
“[You] can step back and interrogate yourself on whether you’ve made a mistake. I’m here to tell you that you have.”
“Please see through the hatred and scorn in this section and consider whether or not you’ve made a grave mistake. That’s all – just consider it, and maybe address it somewhere. That’s all I’m asking.”
Back on November 6th, Noirin did address exactly this:
“I certainly didn’t post without thinking about it, but I think speaking out is important enough that I’m willing to take that risk – along with the risks of slut-shaming and other backlash.”
So, she already addressed your point. This makes me think that you yourself are unwilling to “step back and interrogate yourself on whether you’ve made a mistake.” Noirin stated what happened to her. She doesn’t guess Florians motives or intentions, just a factual statement of what occurred. You seem to be just as firmly stating your *opinion*, not fact, on what she wrote – and you seem very determined not interrogate yourself.
Here via a friend who works at BARCC.
I wish I could say something to take away the people who don’t realize how many people this happens to, every damned year, who are told exactly to keep their mouths shut. That she indicated that she’s gone to the police on this matter should indicate some seriousness about the situation, moreso than trying to slag someone’s rep.
And I speak from perspective. I’ve been involved in actual, real-life issues of false accusations of sexual harassment, and know how painful that can be. I, myself, as a male dancer have been sexually harassed, and would never undermine someone else’s attempts to break the very real, and very painful, silence our societies keep around this issue, esp. for women in groups that are predominantly male.
Because the core of the situation isn’t to accuse someone of lying. Or to keep a silence. For you folks, I assure you, I’ve seen false statements, and that number — even of people who go public with such things — DWARFS in comparison to the people who, because of waves of folks like you, never, ever go public, even when the creep is put behind bars. And so, sexual harassment, even rape, is the iceburg crime, always hidden. Trying to help that along to avoid Yet Another Internet Backlash is a crap play.
Given the pain of this crime on many levels, including what you folks are doing, I’m on her side. I know, again from experience, how people react to talking about these issues online, and it’s NEVER easy, never fun, never done as a lark or a joke. I hope more people commenting will think about this, and rework their actions to be better supporters, and less judgmental. Why? Because there are a lot more people dealing with these issues than you know, and they need your support, dammit, not your approbation and concern trolling. Your actions here do nothing to support those people — or her, initial displays of sympathy aside.
And as for the rest of you god-damned “she brought it upon herself” crew? My disgust at that old, shameful, and worst of all wrong bromide holds no boundaries. Not only should no one have to live their lives in fear that someone will do this, no one should have to carry themselves in that way. There’s a vast and key difference between what happened here, and, say, walking down the wrong alley in the wrong city, starting with “it can, and does, happen everywhere.” Get a god-damed grip on yourselves.
I was raped at a party. I was too stunned and shocked after the event that I did not do the things I should have done. All the sensible things that a person should do after a rape left my mind because it was a senseless act. An act that left me shocked emotionally and mentally paralysed. For years, I didn’t tell my family. I didn’t seek help until a decade later. That event has poisoned my life and the memory of that horror that powerlessness will always effect how I behave.
Also, I knew two people that were accused of committing assault and their lives were not ruined by an accusation.
Please don’t listen to anyone telling you that you did wrong by naming and shaming no matter how reasonable his or her argument might seem.
You are brave. Don’t feel ashamed. Do seek counselling.
@Everyone:
I never said what allegedly happened is “ok” or “just fine”. I was trying to understand why it’s such a HUGE deal.
My initial view is that hands down pants against the pants-wearer’s wishes is still bad, but it’s on the same level as other personal-space violations, like sneezing in one’s face, shoving, and other such space violations that do not result in personal injury but are nonetheless objectionable.
I don’t understand why society draws this imaginary line whereby a normal personal space violation suddenly becomes infinitely worse.
I am not arguing that Florian should get off the hook for being a jerk. I’m asking why he is being castigated for somehow being much worse than a simple jerk.
You know, for all the folks using words like “alleged” and “supposed” and “fabricated”, I don’t see even a single person, on any website, saying “I know Florian, and he wouldn’t do that”, and I don’t see Florian saying anything, for or against. Anyone saying that he needs “a chance to respond” are kind of running out of time to make that case. He’s had that chance.
I know Noirin. I’ve had dinner in her home. I’ve worked with her on conferences and on technical documentation. I don’t for a moment doubt that things happened as she says. I also don’t believe for a moment that Florian could have misunderstood her intent. She’s hardly known for being shy about her opinions.
Noirin, I’m dreadfully sorry this happened to you. I’m glad that you didn’t keep it a secret, whatever folks are saying about what you should or should not have done.
To all of the folks that are implying that this was somehow Noirin’s fault, I have to wonder if maybe you have found yourself in a situation where you did something you regret, and are now looking for a way to pass that blame. Even if someone asks you to commit a crime, it’s still a crime. And when they ask you to stop, it remains a crime. She didn’t ask, and she did ask him to stop.
And, once again, if Noirin says it happened this way, it happened this way. All of you strangers making accusations of what she might and might not have done – you don’t know her.
“I lay across the bed, sat on laps, generally tried to squish in to any available space and get time to talk to all the fabulous people thronging the place.”
Regarding the above statement: did you ask for permission to sit on their laps (male or female), before doing so? Although I would not know personally, some men may find this sort of unwanted attention highly inappropriate. Did you receive their consent before doing so?
I should know better, because he’s probably a troll, but on the off-chance he’s not, I have to respond to Chuck:
“When a woman [dresses provocatively], it’s exactly analogous to a man using his physical strength to overpower a woman. This is because just as women usually have no defense against a stronger male, men have no or little defense against their hormones when they see certain parts of the female body exposed in front of them.”
I have to say, as a man, I am insulted by this statement. When I see an attractive woman in “provocative” dress, I don’t feel any desire to sexually assault her, let alone an overwhelming one. I certainly have had no problem defending myself from my hormones when I see “certain parts of the female body exposed in front of” me.
If a man has overwhelming urge to have sex with women who “dress provocatively”, to the point where he can barely restrain himself from sexually assaulting them, therapy is in order. At the very least, he shouldn’t be getting drunk in settings where women are present.
I don’t understand how this guy could even put his hands in her pants in the first place. Is he even uglier himself? Was he on strong drugs? There’s just got to be an explanation to that.
I’m seriously impressed by how brave you were in posting this and in naming names, especially in light of the sheer volume of idiocy and hate that’s come your way in the comments. It looks like you did talk to the police, but do people seriously not understand that women might have good reason not to press charges (the kind of vitriol in the comments being reason number one for considering not going public…)? Does the fact that I decided that I didn’t have the energy to deal with the police in what would have been a very he-said she-said sort of investigation make me less sexually assaulted?
Anyway, kudos to you and I’m so sorry you had to go through that.
I’m sorry about what happened Noirin.. I hope you’re doing well now *hugs*
@Jor-El: I hereby classify you as a Grade A Nitwit.
I have to inhale and consider what I’m doing before commenting here, but I’m going to do it anyway. I’m ready for round three.
I haven’t used this in any of my postings on the matter, but I am a relatively new committer to the ASF. As such, the actions of those with longer track records in the ASF are important to me, and I follow them closely. Everyone dismissing me as a victim-blamer should know better simply on that premise alone; I automatically have more respect for you, and I’d never blame you for your pain or attempt to minimize it in any way.
That being said, the naming of F here was a catastrophic mistake. I wrote a followup after the Reddit thread from hell on why, and I hope you’ll read it:
http://jedsmith.org/thoughts-on-trial-by-twitter
Noirin, I hope you don’t buy into the gas chamber of vitriol coming from people who refuse to look at this objectively. I know you’re smarter than that, and can step back and interrogate yourself on whether you’ve made a mistake. I’m here to tell you that you have.
Anyone attempting to refute merely naming and shaming by using misogyny, rape apology, women’s rights/liberation, or first amendment/legal basis is clouding the argument and victimizing those who take an objective look at what has happened. That’s why I almost didn’t comment here, because I know long after I leave this comment (I had rehearsal on Gawker/Valleywag), I am going to be the mortal enemy of thousands.
Please see through the hatred and scorn in this section and consider whether or not you’ve made a grave mistake. That’s all – just consider it, and maybe address it somewhere. That’s all I’m asking.
As a techie-male, I would like to say that the douche’s that are criticizing you are retarded. Any woman should be able to wear, say, do what she wants, where she wants. An assault is ALWAYS the fault of the attacker – NO ONE ELSE!!!!
@Jor-El
So since Noirin managed to struggle free before it was completed rape, it’s ok?
I’m so sorry for what happened to you. I’m also sorry for the horrifying number of people who re-traumatize through victim blaming and minimizing. I hope you are proud of yourself for how brave you are to speak out. I just want to express my support. :-/
[...] On her blog, Noirin Shirley writes about an after-party at ApacheCon: And then I went to the loo, and as I was about to go in, Florian Leibert, who had been speaking in the Hadoop track, called me over, and asked if he could talk to me. [...]
Jor-El, what universe do you live in where it is acceptable for anyone to just put their hands inside a protesting woman’s underwear? How were they *not* violating her?
I could go into more detail to try to work out what you think constitutes a violation, but I suspect you are deliberately trolling, because while you might, conceivably, feel that everyone is welcome to poke fingers near to *your* bodily orifices against your express wishes, that is not a cultural norm anywhere that I know of.
I’m really sorry this happened to you — thank you for blogging about it and taking action so it won’t happen again.
I saw this before and didn’t comment because others already had, but I realize it never hurts to have more words of support.
This takes a great amount of strength because I’m quite sure you were aware of the shit storm that would come from this and you did it anyway. You are amazing.
Sorry to hear this. I’ve not read all the posts/comments but I would like to respond to Jor-El’s “no harm not foul” comment. The short of it is, I was once pulled over in southern Mississippi on the way back from playing a gig in The Big Easy and, during the course of the incident felt up (frisked?) by the officer. This was a turning point in my life and took me down a path I can never undo. I’ve managed to never watch 2girls1cup, but I have yet to work out this cop with his hands on my crotch. Oh, and the ticket for improper equipment didn’t help much either.
There seem to be a lot of comments here along the lines of “innocent until proven guilty”, etc. I think these comments are missing the point entirely.
There ought to be a discussion of what Florian was “guilty” or “innocent” of in the first place.
It should be asked: What is the problem? Hands down pants? Big deal. There is no “violence”, nor is there any “trauma”. Hands went down pants, and presumably, promptly removed. No harm, no foul.
*hugs*
I’m really sorry (and angry) this happened to you. I’ve been harassed, hit upon, touched way too familiarly and such at tech events; but never anything like this. I applaud your honesty, your courage and your commitment. Good on you for naming names. Protecting his reputation isn’t your responsibility!
Take care, and I’ll see you soon.
TO EVERYONE SLUT-SHAMING the author (YES YOU ARE, YOU MORALLY CRAVEN COWARDS), I hope you:
~DIE IN A FIRE~
So sorry to hear about this, and yet completely unsurprised because I’ve seen similar things. I’m careful about where I go at con’s just because of this, but as a director of one, sometimes I put that awareness second to what’s going on at that second. It’s all to easy to do.
Respectfully,
Erin
Let’s build a critical mass of positive comments saying YOU DID THE RIGHT THING and try to dilute out the rape apologist comments here as much as possible. Thank you, thank you, thank you, for every tech woman out there.
I hope this shakes up our communities for the better, and the positive comments are helping my optimistic half. In the meantime, I’m sorry for what happened to you, and even more sorry that people are just as predictable as I feared in light of your naming your attacker.
Best
“But I don’t give the wrong impression, and it’s simply not true that guys can’t read me right. ”
Impressions are interpreted
and
Depends on the guy.
“I don’t want to be assaulted, and the vast majority of guys read that just fine.”
So it is true that some guys don’t read you right ?
/just saying.
I was assaulted when I was younger, at a party no less. I never went to the police, and I never told my family because I was so scared and so ashamed. It’s taken almost 10 years for me to get to the point where I’m comfortable and angry, righteously so.
I applaud you for your courage. I was in your shoes, and I was unable to be as brave as you are. You’re a credit to our gender, there are a lot of people, not just women, who are behind you 100%.
It is never okay to invade someone’s personal space, and I say it’s about time we fought back.
I am sorry that this happened to you. What a shocking thing to have occur.
I am also sorry that so many of the comments here have turned it into a bingo-card-point rich environment; oh, look! Blaming the victim! And there; suggesting it’s a false allegation! And another; hand-wringing that you might be bringing harm on yourself by mentioning it! And so forth.
I had to boggle at the comment in which someone said you were wrong for subjecting your attacker to ‘a public lynching’ in the comment thread when to my eye, at least, it’s you who are besieged by an angry mob spewing criticism of the nastiest misogynistic kind.
As sad as it is that this reaction is so predictable, I have to imagine you were aware that speaking out might attract negative comments and chose to do so anyway, and I applaud your courage. But this hail of misinformed vitriol … ergh. So much. It really sucks.
Please don’t be disheartened, though. The storm of comments and linking adds to the light being shed on the unacceptability of sexual assault. I hope that people take away the message that if a person tries to force sexual attention on someone at a con in future, the odds have just gone way up that there *will* be consequences.
I wish it were not so hard on the key individuals who act to change things, but your post is like sending up a warning flare to let everyone know that; No, women cannot be relied on to bow to social pressure and keep their attackers “dirty little secret” for them any more.
Thank you for doing this.
Someone up there says:
> However, I have no sympathy for you. You dress
> provocatively and expect men to leave you alone.
> When a > woman does that, it’s exactly analogous to a > man using his physical strength to overpower a woman.
Oh, no, it is not. Think about it. How one dresses: not an invitation. Not permission.
How one dresses: in no way equivalent to using one’s physical strength to commit an assault. Are you saying men just can’t control themselves?? That men, including smart men at a tech conference, don’t know how to ask, rather than assume?
Argh, dammit, I’m so sorry, Noirin, this is awful (and I’m sorry about the many….er….regrettable and clueless comments above).
[...] Shirley’s post A hell of a time in which she describes her sexual assault at ApacheCon on the 4th November and names her attacker [...]
Noirin, Im so sorry that you were attacked and I applaud you for speaking up, for naming your attacker and letting others know of your experience.
To the others, who criticise Noirin’s looks and behaviour, shame on you. How about you expend more energy questioning the attacker’s behaviour?
social encounters are perfect opportunity for flirting, trying and illegal acts.. the internet is perfect place to speak out and get known, the question is when a story becomes reality
If this guy did was he’s accused of then he should be in jail.
The problem is that we have no idea if it’s true. Anyone can post anything on a blog. Part of the benefit of having a criminal justice system is that the jury gets a full airing of both sides up front before making a decision.
Whether or not he did it, this guy’s life is ruined. He has absolutely no recourse. What if it turns out she was lying? What if she’s got a history of falsely accusing people? What if it turns out that other people at the party saw what happened and totally contradict her?
If someone commited a serious crime against me blogging about it wouldn’t exactly be the first (or second or third) thing on my mind. Reporting it to the police, in the safety of a police officer’s presence would be.
If I was having a party and someone stabbed me that’s it – parties immediately over. I’m calling the police, telling everyone what happened, making sure that the attacker is removed from the house immediately. It sounds like the blogger didn’t even send everyone home immediately or immediately call the police. That’s not consistent with having been the victim of a serious crime in her own home.
Sexual assault is a serious crime, so much so that perpetrators get the designation of sex-offender for years (or for life) – even murderers don’t get that. You can’t argue that sexual assault is a serious crime then treat it like it’s no big deal by not reporting it to the police. It doesn’t even really matter if the person gets convicted; in the very least they’ll be a public record of someone accusing them so if they do it again prosecutors will take it much more seriously.
If someone stole my bike, I’ve had so many bikes stolen I might not report it. I might be angry but at the end of the day it’s not that big a deal. Because it’s not that big of a deal the hassle of reporting it to the police isn’t worth it. It’s a totally different situation when it comes to an assault – you get help immediately, report it, party’s over and oh yeah get the perpetrator out of my house.
For a serious crime it doesn’t even matter how much your life will be put under a microscope because the injustice of it, the pain of it is so big that they outweigh all other considerations. Why didn’t she at least immediately tell her husband/SO so he could find the attacker, clock him and throw him out of his house (while she immediately called the police)?
[...] is the story as it appeared in my Google RSS: Google technical writer Noirin Shirley wrote a post on her personal blog earlier this evening entitled “A hell of a time,” purportedly detailing [...]
Thank you for speaking publicly about this, and not leaving out names or details. If only more women would. More importantly, if only more of society would stop blaming the victim.
I’m so sorry for what happened to you.
BTW, Greg Stein has posted that he saw you afterward and can speak to your state of mind.
http://www.quora.com/Sexual-Harassment/Who-witnessed-the-Florian-Leibert-Noirin-Shirley-incident
I came in on this late; I saw “Google technical writer” and thought “Was this anybody I know?”. I was very sorry to hear it was you; I respect you professionally and personally. I am so sorry, and so angry, to hear about this.
Go you for naming and shaming.
Dear Noirin, you are one tough cookie. You have way more balls than most men. Hang in there. You’re doing awesome. And one more thing: THANK YOU!!!! for doing what you did. This is great. It’s powerful and inspiring! You are a hero!
You did the right thing for speaking out about this.
You are paving the way for other women who have remained silent about this kind of behavior to feel empowered to do something about it.
I’m so sorry that you had to go through this, and that the aggression has continued in some of the disgusting comments I’ve read here.
First, I’m sorry it happened.
Second, I’m glad you spoke out and named him.
Third, I think people should take a long read through these comments. There are a lot of stupid abusive assholes in the world. Noirin named and shamed just one of them. Something more of us should do.
This is pretty scandalous. I’m beginning to believe what women always say about rape; that it’s about power and not sex. Because after looking up pictures of you this guy most obviously couldn’t have been in it for the sex. I just refuse to believe it. Was he completely drunk? What the heck? This guy has some serious explaining to do.
I’m so sorry to hear about this. You’re very brave for speaking out.
I know you’re going to get a lot of shit from people on this – I’ve already seen it in the comments on other sites.
Please know that this tech girl thinks you are brave.
Your experience isn’t uncommon, and the guys who protest obviously don’t have female friends who trust them because your experience is more the rule than the exception.
It’s exhausting.
Noirin, I was shocked to heard this. There are bad guys always in the world .. always try to keep your good things with you and be strong !
Thanks
Lahiru
What a jerk. Hope you are alright, Noirin.
[...] Google tech writer recently accused Twitter engineer of sexual assault on her blog, and given the responses shot at both sides (Noirin Shirley, accuser, and Florian [...]
Thank you for being willing to speak out. I am glad you had people who’d get your back after it happened.
As for everyone else:
Truth is defense to libel, and they have to prove you wrong. If it’s two people’s words vs each other, you didn’t commit libel. I’m so sick of people trying to force women to shut up when they name the men who assault them, who harass them, who offer quid pro quo. Until we all feel free to share our stories, names attached, these men will know they have the safety of anonymity in which to break the law.
Being accused of sexual assault is not worse than being assaulted.
We shouldn’t have to be afraid to step out of our house, we shouldn’t have to be afraid to go to social events that are vital for networking, men, and women, should be scared to commit assault. We need to make sure there are social consequences, even if the legal consequences are less-than-satisfactory.
You are so brave to speak out about this– I really appreciate your courage.
What an asshole. Doesn’t know the meaning of getting shot down – it means you leave her alone. Some people really shouldn’t drink. If drinking makes you somehow forget that stuffing your hand down someone’s skirt is wayyy out of bounds then it’s time to lay off the sauce.
You seem like a tough girl so hopefully you’ll be able to shake this off. I sometimes worry that spending too much energy on negative shit like this is self-defeating. Assholes exist, this one should be in jail but at least his name is out there so people know to be wary around him.
Thank you for saying something; it can be hard but it’s needed.
Hmm.. I tried to comment and it doesn’t seem to have gone through so let me try this again.
Sending *hugs*. I wish I could do more to help at this moment than to say that I’m supremely sorry thing happened to you. Well done, however, for speaking out. I know from experience how hard that is to do.
Thank you.
Thank you for speaking up about unacceptable behaviour.
Thank you for highlighting the culture that still exists at technical conferences.
Thank you for putting up with the misogynist backlash apparent in the comments.
Thank you.
Noirin, I’m proud to know you. Thank you for making this public.
[...] anyone who hasn’t already seen it, Noirin has posted a writeup of her being sexually assaulted at ApacheCon. I think what happened is absolutely horrible, it disgusts me. And i think that Noirin [...]
[...] misfortune Noirin Shirley, a woman I have never met and am not even an internet acquaintance of, was sexually assaulted recently. That is bad enough, but what makes it worse are the pathetic attempts at slut-shaming and [...]
What happened should not have. It makes me really sad, and very glad you’ve spoken up.
Every person deserves personal safety and bodily integrity: the people who’ve criticised your post should look deeply at themselves and think “what if it happened to me?” or “what if it happened to someone I care deeply about?”
Strength.
Guys/Gals – you forget that this still “allegedly” happened. If this indeed happen that way, alright – but let the other side say his opinion before hanging him.
Also believe me – what you did to this guy with this blog post, the Hacker News thread and even Techcrunch (I see they came to their senses and deleted their post) pretty much ruined his personal and professional life FOREVER. His name will probably point to this page from now on forever. You still have the time to at least correct that somehow, there are very few crimes that justify this fate.
You’ve mentioned sexual harassments before, named people, “have been flirting with a couple of guys”, “had a few drinks”, “party at private room” – I can see a lot of questions being asked from people even starting from your posts and we have not heard the other side of the story yet.
It does not matter where it happened, whether there was alcohol involved, or if someone “mis-read” signs. From the point where “I tried to push him off, and told him I wasn’t interested” there is absolutely no justification, nor can there be tolerance for “jamming his hand into my underwear and fumbling.”
That’s not the voice of reason, that’s the voice of viciousness. If you can’t think of anything to say when someone’s hurt other than “ya musta had it coming somehow” then shut the fuck up.
Noirin, sweetie, it hurts to know you were hurt. And it hurts even more to know that with all the supposed advances in feminism and gender equality in the last forty years, not a damn thing has changed. Not a damn thing – except your bravery in standing up and speaking out. I am so proud of you.
I am so sorry that this happened. There is no excuse for assault. Ever.
I am fed up with men being able to get away with this sort of behaviour and even being able to joke and laugh about it later. It’s unacceptable.
You did the right thing in reporting it.. I cannot even begin to imagine how much courage you had to summon in order speak out.
Regards,
Rob…
[...] you were not on Hacker News or Proggit last night you may not heard about this story about a sexual assault during ApacheCon. What makes this story interesting—other than the [...]
Sorry you had a bad evening but hell, who do you think hangs out late at night in bars – church goers?
Grow up and learn from this and apparently your other experiences.
And bad form on naming names unless you intend to press charges.
As a complete outsider to the industry in question and the people involved I can say that, while my deepest sympathies go to the victim of the assault, my interest in this matter was not initially about those directly involved. A blog made reference to a reference to this post, and here I am reading it for reasons beyond its original context.
Writing in this way, on this subject, via this medium is a new social phenomenon. Given the context, Jo raises a point that is worthy of discussion– moral, ethical, legal, political.
Commenters simply attacking Jo or dismissing his/her concern out of hand play into the dramatic irony that plagues public discourse; they deliver a reactionary backlash against what they mistake to be a reactionary backlash.
Again, Noirin, I am sorry to hear of your experience. You clearly feel that you were grievously wronged by this individual. I hope the situation is resolved justly.
You are fabulous. Being able to put this out here in such an authentic way – brave, inspiring and overall extremely helpful.
Well done.
You have done something that I couldn’t do.
I think I hear the * ding * of a someone “leveling up”, it’s like an angel getting their wings or something.
The tech community has a hard time understanding that these things occur because so few of them would actually do such a thing and they assume all other men feel the same way. At the same time, there are many fewer women in the community, so they’ve never heard the stories. They are shocked that such a thing would happen, but because they would never do something inappropriate, they assume all other men must not do such inappropriate things, and are suspicious. They put themselves in the man’s shoes, not the woman’s. When they do that they find the accusation suspect.
The best way to counter that is for women to speak out when it happens to them, the way YOU did. The more women who come forward and say: yes, this happens, the less likely the men in the community will be to write it all off as a single crazy woman.
Thank you.
It’s one thing to push someone away when they attempt a kiss. Ideally, they should have sensed if… or if not an attempted kiss was ok. The hand jamming down the pants… waay over the line. The excuse of “being drunk” for the guy, I’m sorry, doesn’t work.
I’ve been with someone who’s been sexually assaulted for over 6 years and the memory doesn’t just “go away”. It changes someone’s life. The person has a hypersensitivity about social situations and a impaired sense of “self”.
As for the people who saw “get over it” or “she must have been asking for it…” It just shows how shallow they are. Empathy is in short supply these days.
I hope you regain your spirit and by “outing” this incident and individual.
No one should have to put up with this crap be they female or male.
To me using business/social functions for self gratification is in extremely poor taste. What’s next for this guy…”roofies”? I wouldn’t be surprised.
I think he should sue you in reply for your hair color
wow. what the *fuck*.
Thank you for speaking up about this. he’s a sick fuck.
I’m so glad nothing like that has happened to me at tech conferences…
What a horrible experience.
I’m so sorry to hear about this. Being female and flirting doesn’t give anyone the right to assault you. I would hope that nitwit offers a public apology.
A culture of shame and silence is definitely at the root of this problem. Sexual assault should be no different than any other kind of assault.
If this guy had punched her or shouted at her, Noirin wouldn’t have hidden herself away, and felt shame and guilt; she would have called immediate attention to the problem and called the police.
I hope the next time such an unfortunate thing befalls any assault victim anywhere, they don’t feel required to resort to naming names on a blog after the fact, and instead the perpetrator has to answer directly to the police.
You’re right that women should not be forced to restrain themselves in fun-inducing situations, as these are a core part of bonding at conferences, just because some idiot might not be able to restrain his sexual impulses. I hope your fending him off included a good, physical slap and a kick in his lower parts. If it didn’t, I have feeling this whole public episode is not doing any good to his private life, and that his next check in to the Twitter office will make for an awkward situation. Well done by going public! This guy and all others who act like this deserve the unwanted attention. As for you and all other girls, keep having fun at conferences. Mini-skirts #ftw!
I’m really surprised to such a behaviour is common in a country like US. But anyway – please take legal precautions – Noirin.
Thanks
Raja
This is shameful. You’ve made horrific accusations, calling out the accused by name, and we have absolutely zero evidence to back this up. Has a police report been filed? Are there any witnesses? Have you even considered the possibility that after all that drinking you’re not correctly remembering the events that transpired, or the face of the person that did it if it happened? The least you can do if you’re going to vilify someone publicly like this is to have a claim on the record that it happened. If your story is true, then if nothing else you owe it to potential future victims to have the man’s actions on the record.
I don’t believe there is a double standard. As a man, I was uncomfortably groped and it didn’t feel good at all. Though, socially, men are given the burden of initiating sexual and romantic relationships, it is hurtful and haunting to be touched inappropriately as a man.
However, the problem in publicly defaming someone is this…
What if, not in this situation, but in another almost identical one, the accuser is not being forthcoming with all of the facts. (I am giving you a hypothetical here not to make a point about you, but a point about the legal process) Lets say the accuser is actually the instigator, who decides later out of embarrassment that he/she felt violated. The accuser will almost never admit to inappropriate behavior on his/her part. The accused would thus receive social backlash and damage to his/her life and livelihood that is undeserved.
It is important to note once more that I am not talking about your situation as I know nothing of the facts. What I’m talking about is the importance of having poise even when you are absolutely sure that you have been wronged. This is why we have a legal process. To protect both the accused and the accuser and thus find if someone crossed a legal boundary.
Good for speaking out. Not being silent makes you a survivor. Never forget that. Anyone who thinks geography makes a difference after a “No.” needs to be checked for a brain.
If this happened I am really sorry.
But if this actually happened why did you not file a report with the police?
Sexual assault is a serious allegation and deservedly so, sex offenders once convicted generally get registered on a list which can and does prevent future assaults.
If this happens again -if it did happen and it is not up to me to decide either way as I am not a judge and I doubt any of the commentators here are either- to another lady by the same guy, realistically I think you should take responsibility as most offenders repeat the crime over and over again if they are not convicted.
So if it did happen and you did not report it, I personally think you are as bad as him, because you could have prevented it happening to another lady, sorry if that sounds harsh but I would not like my wife to have to go through this because someone did not report a guy that did it before.
[...] Read the original here: A hell of a time » [nɚdʃik] [...]
“I’m so tired of men being interested in me sexually and trying to get in my pants after I’ve been teasing them all night” *sigh*
I know your type… You love to flirt with guys and get attention (sitting in laps) and then act offended when someone guesses that you might be up for a roll in the hay.
YOU are the problem, trust me.
You are to be commended for speaking out.
But this was not the place to do it. Period.
Look at the comments here. Some are merely supportive of you, which is appropriate. However, most are ready to string Florian up. He has been judged in (some part of) the public eye. Perhaps worse, if this gets much press and/or legal action you have peed in the jury pool. (And, should they not see things your way, subjected yourself to suit for slander. The truth is an absolute defense, but only if the court agrees with your version of the truth, though I am not a lawyer so I could be wrong.)
“Innocent until proven guilty” means just that. To those who commented before me, do not place the importance of “speaking out” above the importance of “rule of law.” Passing judgement on serious accusations is for the courtroom.
Noirin, that’s terrible! There just is no excuse for assault.
I’ve met a few too many people in my life (one would be too many, really) who have been raped or abused to not get very, very angry. The silence that usually follows these incidents is a terrible thing, that absolutely must not continue. Thank you for helping break it!
Wow an ugly end to a fun day. So sorry this happened to you.
It is accurate that it has nothing to do with the fact that you were flirting and wearing bike shorts… Someone who uses that excuse is just being disingenuous.
Really you should have gone to the police first, with witnesses and filed a complaint – and published this after that. It sounds like you had a number of witnesses to corroborate your version. The fact that you went so public first might undercut any actual punishment.
One good thing is that if this happens again to someone else then there is a precedent. A bad outcome is if this turns into a libel situation and he is able to sue for damages.
tl:dr I applaud the stand here – just question the timing.
Play beer pong
Lay across bed
Sit on laps
Find hands in underwear
Sounds pretty logical to me
While I am saddened by this, no one has the right to put their hands on anyone without permission, am I the only one wondering why the authorities ie; police, hotel security etc were not contacted. All this talk of libel etc would be irrelevant had due process been followed. With a police report a mug-shot and a court date legitimacy becomes a matter of public record, as opposed to a another on the long list of cases won or lost in the court of public opinion. Norin I am very sorry you “claim” you were assaulted until a police report is filed it is still only a claim. Again I am not trying to diminish you claim, its just that laws against this sort of thing are difficult to enforce if the victims choose to use the internet instead of the courts to elicit an outcome.
Hi,
I can’t seem to find your picture to determine how cute you are. Is one available online?
We will have an attendee & speaker policy for the Desktop Summit this year. We had a speaker policy for GUADEC last year. And we will be providing, I hope, swift & decisive reaction if the policy needs to be applied.
To any reading this who are shocked: As a frequent conference goer, where there are often parties with lots of beer & drunkenness, I have seen inappropriate groping, unwelcome hugs & kisses, overbearing staring & lechery many times over the years. From people who knew each other, not total strangers.
Once, I was about to intervene & tell a guy who was being particularly lecherous to back off, and the lady involved said “It’s OK, it’s just Ted, he’s always like this, we’ve known each other for years”. I admired the way she kept her calm, I don’t think I could have.
So – rather than be shocked, let’s be aware. And the next time you see someone stepping over the line and making a woman feel uncomfortable at a conference, ask to have a word with him. Take him aside, and if you want, talk about the weather and let the poor girl escape. Or, if you’re feeling brave, tell him that he’s out of line & it might be time for him to go to bed & sleep it off. We’re never going to prevent 100% of the “one-on-one, no witness” encounters that we have here, but we can cut out a lot.
Cheers,
Dave.
Much saner discussion about this on reddit and tech crunch.
It’s queer that rather than go to police,author goes online and turns it into a public lynching.
I am sorry that you were almost raped. Sort of. Being a male who was actually raped, I have little empathy for the pass that may have been assault almost rape victims.
Posting names on the internet when this is an allegation is terrible. You should raise it with the correct authorities first and if he’s found guilty then by all means paste his name around.
..also I think you might look/act like a slut.
*hugs* I only just saw this. I’m so sorry this happened to you and even sorrier that this isn’t the first time
Good for you, though, on speaking out. I know it’s hard to do, but every time someone speaks out it makes it easier for the next person to speak out to do so.
Get over it, some jerk groped you and now your whole life is ruined? You’re an attention whore who got the wrong sort of attention, that’s how it is sometimes. Calling this guy out is fine if you want but recognize that you’re clearly an idiot. There is “what’s right” and what is smart, as an adult you ought to know the difference by now you big baby. Keep waiting for the law to intervene and clear away all the jerks and pervs and you’ll live a long, sad life only to learn in the end that the cops, lawyers and politicians you think give a shit are the biggest pervs/jerks out there and will only help you to help their career. Just stop being such a drama queen/attention whore and you’ll be fine … “bicycle shorts under my skirt” …LOL. Do you realize what a social misfit you are?
Everyone who is accusing “Jo” of “blaming the victim” is being irrational.
If, for whatever reason, this man is found innocent of assaulting this woman, this woman could be sued for this blog post.
You may think the law is stupid, but it is completely rational, and not in any way condoning sexual assault, to recommend that someone wait until innocence or guilt has been decided by the law to spread the assaulter’s name around.
While I’m sure the story posted in this blog is correct, and is symptomatic of a larger and disturbing trend, simply saying “IT’S TRUE THEREFORE IT’S NOT LIBEL!!1″ is not an argument, legal or otherwise. Nor does it protect the victim from having her case dismissed (all too common, as I’m sure most are aware) and then turned against her.
For god’s sake, people.
[...] At ApahceCon this week, a member of the Apache Software Foundation’s Board, Noirin, was assaulted by another member of the community. Noirin has a post covering it on her blog, entitled “A hell of a time”. [...]
不是吧，他居然性骚扰您？果然是酒后出西施啊！
If this story is true, I’m sorry for my doubts. And honestly, I shouldn’t care because I don’t know either of you and live on the other side of the country.
Having said that, if this is an exaggeration or even a simple case where an engineer misreads a woman (like this never happens), shame on you. Do you realize what you’re doing? You’re publicly assassinating somebody’s character. Is your ego that big? Are you sure you have the facts correct? Do you care? Social media offers a lot of benefits but potential abuse like you’re showing is one of the dark, undercurrents.
The guy who touched you is a jerk and an embarassment to the male sex.
However, I have no sympathy for you. You dress provocatively and expect men to leave you alone. When a woman does that, it’s exactly analogous to a man using his physical strength to overpower a woman. This is because just as women usually have no defense against a stronger male, men have no or little defense against their hormones when they see certain parts of the female body exposed in front of them. Dressing as you did is unfair; it puts undue burden on the men around you by taking advantage of their weak point. You’re foolish and naive for expecting to escape the evening without incident.
First of let me state that I’m sorry this happened to you.
I’m going to take you at your word that this happened and I’m not going to criticize your behavior, although, I must admit that upon reading your post, your description of your own behavior that night is nothing short of a goldmine for a defense lawyer.
Still, that said, flirtatious or not, it doesn’t give anybody the right to do what you claim Florian did or assume they can without asking permission.
One thing that is disturbing to me, perhaps as disturbing as what happened to you, is that you have posted this online, accusing (and please bear in mind that right now, it’s your word against his, so it is an accusation) him of sexual assault. You have named him, his company, where you work, and at no point have you mention pressing charges. At no point have you mentioned getting the authorities involved.
If, and I cautiously say if, because I can only imagine how difficult it is to write about this stuff, but it wouldn’t be the first time someone has claimed something like this and it turned out not to be true, please, please go to the authorities.
Quite frankly, that should have been your first step, not going back to your room and sleeping. Not continuing with the conference, and certainly NOT blogging about it until you have the authorities involved.
I’m sorry if this sounds cruel, I don’t intend it to, but, seriously, you HAVE to take the step of getting the authorities involved or your claim holds little water.
I hope this all works out.
I’m surprised Jo is the only one concerned about the naming of this guy. Jo said “I don’t know who Florian Leibert is” but having just googled his name I now know all kinds of things about him, including the fact that his “guilt” is now being discussed across the internet.
A potential defence against libel is indeed that it is can be proved to be the truth, but others have suggested it was the right thing to do in part because it would be so hard to prove in court.
So maybe he will sue you for libel as the only way to clear his name. Or maybe you will file a charge against him, giving him the right of defence that even the most despicable people receive…..although I imagine the damage is already done and this will haunt him, perhaps deservedly so, for the rest of his life.
Noirin,
I’m so sorry you’ve had to deal with an assault, and the consequences thereof. I hate seeing the worst of human-kind, and events like this remind me that we’re not all good and kind.
I commend you for speaking out, and for naming your attacker. I praise your bravery in the face of those who would call you names, who would question your reputation. I commend you for making the rest of us aware, so that we know to watch our backs.
You are a brave, strong, upstanding woman, and we are lucky to have you.
Many ((hugs)).
Sexual liberation: women give it away for free, and their judgment is so bad that often no one can tell the difference between consent and assault. Even further, men are now both sexually frustrated and rightfully scorn most women as self-involved sluts, so treat them even worse. What a good idea sexual liberation was.
Its a man’s world, always has been and always will be, and you can never change that, so get used to it and drop your panties already ya silly biotch!
In my 30 some years on the planet, i’ve come to learn that i, as a woman, have a lot of power. i have the power to achieve, the power to succeed, the power to pursue any dream or opportunity i want. i have also realized that i have been given other powers, some that i have to be delicate with. noirin, you know this as well as i, that we can project our sexuality and power over men when we want to, but not all men can read the signals the same. the guy who assaulted you is dead wrong, no question. but i ask you to look inside yourself and ask that if you did not create a climate in which the wrong signals were being sent.
no means no, and that is the end of the story. but you must consider whether changes in your own behavior could have avoided this situation in the first place, and in that context, was your public outing a bit extreme of a response.
Awful business. It’s a despicable act, and I’m ashamed for my sex.
@Jo – don’t be so fucking stupid. it is absolutely the right thing to name the perpetrator when you know who it was.
The alternative is for the victim to /protect/ the attacker by anonymising him? Exactly how is that just?
Don’t bother replying by quoting laws. Fuck the law. Do what’s right – not just what’s lawful.
I am sorry Noirin. Had I known the details of what had just transpired I would have done more than shelter you when that ass came over.
Jo, I’m afraid that it is you who needs to learn about the law. Truth is an absolute defense for libel, and no – there is absolutely no requirement that someone be convicted of a crime before they can be publicly accused of it, that would be ridiculous since it would prevent prosecutors from mounting a case against someone!
I suggest you heed the adage “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt”.
I am sorry to hear that!
Noirin,
I admire you for speaking out forthrightly and fiercely. What an awful thing to happen. So glad that there are many good and appalled people to support you; so frustrating that it takes just one person’s total disregard for a woman’s boundaries to make everyone suspect.
-n
I’m really worried about how quick people are to believe an allegation after hearing only one side of the story.
Anyone with a bit of life experience knows that things always look very different after hearing the other side. You say there was a lot of drinking and that you were flirting with a number of guys.
Not to blame you, but that there is a recipe for disaster. People ALWAYS tell stories to make themselves come off as the victim or innocent. By leaving things out or exaggerating others. The truth is usually not so black and white.
I have no clue what happened, but wouldn’t be so quick to take sides.
It is unacceptable what this person (active voice) did to you. I can only imagine the courage you’ve summoned in speaking out on your own behalf. You have my respect and support.
sorry this happened to you
And you had a right to speak about it.
I was thinking about this last year and was thinking maybe events could advertise that they had vetted the speakers for non-discriminatory language and advertised the event as ‘zero tolerance’ for sexual harassment whereby every guest had to check a box when signing up or having to sign a form when getting your pass at the door. I can only hope that this is the last time I hear about such things in the FLOSS world.
Ok, so it was at a bar, which is still separate from the actual CONFERENCE. This woman was drunk and probably ‘assaulted’ a bunch of guys at the bar in a similar fashion. Are they making a big ruckus out of it? No. Are they trying to publicly humiliate her for it? No. They are respectful of the fact that she misinterpreted their intentions and failed to avoid assaulting them. The double-standards in our society are absolutely ridiculous. Women can get away with any crap these days. It’s disgusting.
The comments were an interesting study in the study of Politically Correct Culture. Very few people other than the article’s author seemed to understand her point: that without any external proof of the event, Noirin was opening herself to litigation for libel, indpendent of the truth of the situation.
So truth is a defence to libel? Well, yes, everyone knows that. But stop and think – without any other evidence, it’d be just word vs word, and who’s to say what’s true in that case? Without proof, it becomes difficult to defend against that charge.
And even after Jo had reclarified that she wasn’t defending the named guy in any way and sympathised with Noirin, she gets accused of ‘blaming the victim’.
Please, folks, use your noggins and don’t just knee-jerk smother people who are asking you to use some critical thinking. Understand before responding.
Good luck out there, Noirin, hope your next one ends on a far better note.
This has happened to you more than once? Shit, I don’t know what to say. This is serious, and you should probably press charges. Against every one of them pigs.
This comment from Reddit is bang on:
Everyone is missing the real point of this and making it about double standards, short skirts, alcohol, and so on. That is not the real dilemma with this situation. The comments on her blog have gone there, the comments in this Reddit submission have gone there. Any discussion down those roads is completely moot.
The real point of this is accusing someone who is very prolific in the technical community of a very serious crime on Twitter, while making absolutely no indication that authorities were involved in the slightest. Worse, she basically admits in her entry that it has happened to her before and she has completely ignored it.
I understand the desire to out someone in the community who is like this so that other women will avoid him. That is the kind of thing that a conviction does, however. They’re both quite prolific, and hold very high positions in communities, and throwing shit around like this on Twitter is a very serious thing to do.
This is public, media-involved character assassination of a degree that I have never seen before. We have one side of a story with potentially two, maybe more. There are so many things wrong with this that I don’t know where to begin. Making this a media event instead of a police incident is a catastrophic mistake, and foreboding for our times, and that people are buying in to this shit is even worse still. The people pointing out the error of her ways on her blog are getting called out by the people who enjoy this public humiliation.
The issue is not whether Florian did or not, or whether Noirin was in the wrong for what she was wearing, or double standards, or any of that happy horseshit. The real issue is that we have a baseless allegation in a very public place, and once that gun is fired, there’s no pulling the bullet back. I would be disheartened indeed if this went forward and ruined Florian’s family and life, then was shown to be a vast overstatement of what actually happened. I would be equally disheartened if this was shown to be 100% true, or worse. The fact is, we don’t know, we’re taking one woman’s word for it, and it’s the word of someone who has apparently not involved the authorities on purpose on multiple occasions prior (based upon reading what she has written).
This reflects poorly upon Noirin, period. It might also reflect poorly upon Florian, but we cannot be sure until he is given a chance to respond. There are ways to handle these things, and this isn’t one of them.
This kind of thing happens far too often, and talking to female geeks I hear SO MANY instances. Thank you for standing up in public and calling it out, with the knowledge that you will be making yourself a target for public slurs.
For the commenters who have implied or said the poster brought it on herself, go and read this:
http://falulatonks.tumblr.com/post/887405861/today-i-got-a-avoid-being-a-rape-victim-sheet-from
Sorry, but it’s up to a court to decide if she was actually assaulted or not. There is a legal process for this. If she posts this on a blog it either is fabricated or it happened but wasn’t a big deal to her. If it was a big deal to her she would have filed a police report. Sorry, you fail, not the guy you are accusing.
Not only is this behavior unacceptable, it’s wrong and it’s illegal. If this ever happens to anyone geek or not, male or female, call the police.
It’s horrible, it’s traumatic, but if this person did it to you, he’ll to it to someone else who might not be as strong or assertive.
I’m terribly sorry this happened, btw.
[...] PeopleAdd QuestionAdd QuestionWhy is the "sexual assault at apachecon" blog posting down?http://blog.nerdchic.net/archive… http://webcache.googleuserconten… is a cache; it is an Apache boardmember claiming to have been [...]
Thanks for speaking up, and also for speaking so eloquently, your points really resonate.
For what its worth, the conferences in my field don’t have a nasty harassment feel to them, even though they are male dominated. Maybe having a handful of women at the top helps to set the attitude.
Dave Neary: “… what can conference co-ordinators do, specifically, to prevent things like this from happening?”
There are some suggestions at http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Women-friendly_events
For anyone who would like to discuss these, please discuss at http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Women-friendly_events rather than in Noirin’s comments.
*hugs*
I am glad that you found the courage to speak up and publicly shame your aggressor. May he never do such a despicable thing to anyone ever again.
As a community, it is important that we cultivate respect for the inherent worth and dignity of every person. We should not mock or abuse others at their expense. We should not participate in degrading or uncharitable speech or actions. We should not tolerate in our midst those who would betray our trust. We should not ignore the problem.
Noirin, you certainly didn’t deserve to be treated that way. +1 for being courageous and speaking out about the incident.
Sorry that this happened to you, and thanks for speaking out and creating buzz. Please file a police report.
So very sorry to read about this. It sounds like it was an excellent con up until that bizarre departure from rational behavior.
No one should ever tell you that you’ve got somethingnto hide here. That implies that you’ve done something wrong rather than being the victim who has had something wrong done to you.
If the gentleman in question, is, in fact a gentleman. He should be mortified and extremely apologetic that he “misunderstood” your own intentions (or lack thereof) and physically exceeded the Boundaries of polite, gentlemanly behavior.
A sincere PUBLIC apology and a promise not to make the same mistake again cam go a long way toward getting us all one step closer to a harrassment-free environment.
Kudos to you for speaking up. I hope his cojones as as big and he will step up and do the right, albeit somewhat embarrassing thing on his part: own it, apologize for it, try to atone for it.
what i wanted to say is that the conference wasnt a factor, men are idiots when drunk – period –
i feel bad for what happened to you and hope you look forward to the next tech conferences you will hopefully attend and keep in mind many times this goes way further than assaulting. also please try not to blame tech confs for what happened, there is really no link.
Read this on techcrunch. Came here. I would love to punch this Flo guy in the face and kick his ass for you. Only a coward will do such things to women.
wow, just wow….. a sad reflection on human behavior. It does take a lot of courage to talk out like this.
once a classmate at the college was told to keep quiet while he was playing with his iphone. later we learned that he filed a discrimination complaint against our nicest professor, and our professor had to go to courts a quite a few times and needed our help.
sexual assault is an awful thing, however, any woman can claim that against any man – then who will protect men from women who resort to this method when hurt/rejected/moody/unstable/mad?
this post is published on TechCrunch, if the claim’s baseless, it will be an awful memory for Florian – he might lose his job/wife/life now.
i don’t know noirin, florian or anyone and i wasn’t at the event.
There’s no excuse for sexually assault. Seems pretty clear that most people, men and women, agree.
That being said there is something to be said for making yourself less of a target. Of course you have a right to wear whatever you want. You also have the right to hang out in dark alleys with bags full of cash. Doesn’t mean either makes a whole lot of sense in terms of making yourself less of a target.
Consider it a female’s burden. Like it or not you’re physically vulnerable to about half the population. The more aggressive half. On the bright side you’ll never be drafted for war, will probably not die saving someone from a burning building and will find that a damsel in distress rarely wants for support.
I hope for your sake this is true.
What did this mean:
“He brought me into the snug”? What’s that? My fellow men, please, do not do such things unbecoming a person.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. Gal, you really showed a lotta courage in speaking out. Hell, gal… u got half the web following you, and thats exactly what you should’ve done… I really hope that your post helps others like you who have been victims of sexual assault to find the courage to come out and name the people responsible… We are all with you….
Every story has two sides.. I find weird that this has happened multiple times to you..
Were you asking for it? NO. Were you encouraging it? Yup.
Men are dick-bags. Sounds like, from the comments, that you’ve been through this before. If so, you are not a victim, you are a participant.
From what I’ve read so far, sounds like you find yourself in these positions often.
There was no mention of contacting authorities. Why would you not contact the authorities?
Something is amiss.
Tony & Nick: Ross might used a bad example here, but this unfortunate event happened outside a conference. The quote she used “It’s not the first time it’s happened to me at a tech conference” is really misleading and possibly offensive and should be taken back.
Hi,
thanks for posting this story! It’s so straightforward. I’m proud of you for speaking up for yourself.
In 1997 I was drugged and raped by a Open Source magazine publisher while doing an internship for his magazine. I was never able to tell anyone, and nothing ever happened to him. He told me he likes to pick up girls at the bus depot and do the same thing to them, so he probably did it to lots of other women as well.
Lucky for me, this was before the invention of Viagra, so he got soft before ejaculating. Otherwise it could have been much much worse.
So, Kudos to you for saying something!
I was speechless after reading this, sad too! Sexism is NOT acceptable and you are truly brave for speaking up publicly. Count on my support. Lotsa love and hugs Norin
This is a sensitive subject, and quite possibly you are the victim of a crime, however it is impossible to ignore that a further sin in many ways as bad as the original has been committed here, and that is to deny fair trial, which is very much what you have done here (just check some of the results for a Twitter search on @flo right now).
I can only hope you are beyond all doubt the situation described above could not have been perceived any differently, particularly when after using language such as “told him I wasn’t interested (I may have been less eloquent, but I don’t think I was less clear”.
Not cool (either way).
I’m sorry this happened, and even more sorry it’s not the first time. Thanks for speaking out.
Ross,
You are so misinformed it is quite scary. Straighten up. Back off, and shut the fuck up. It wasn’t in a private hotel room. It was in a public bar, at an after party for conference attendees.
Ross – please read the post. This occurred in a pub. Not a private hotel room, but in a public space in a public “public house” (pub). No matter if this was the pub that most people from the conference ended up in or not, this was an assault in a public place. This cannot be justified in any way, shape or form.
Noirin:
Thank you for speaking up about this. It requires guts, and we need your kind of guts to change our sexist culture.
How many more women would be innovating in tech if tech culture weren’t hostile to women?
Conferences that actually care about the deeper hindrances of innovation would address the issue of sexual and gender-variant harassment.
@Jo:
If someone assaulted me in a punch-up behind the pub, you bet your arse I’d name them on my blog if I recognized who they were. How is this any different?
Noirin, there aren’t any words. Thank you for being so courageous and awesome in general.
I certainly do not want to imply that what happened is not serieus, because it is, but there is a huge difference between ‘at a conference’ and ‘at an after party in a private hotel room where many beers were consumed and people were flirting’.
The whole web is talking about a sexual abuse case at a tech conference while in reality this happened outside of the conference.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} to you, Noirin. Horrifying that this happen. I applaud your courage in naming your attacker, and hope that he is dealt with appropriately. This is absolutely 100% NOT acceptable.
I’m appalled that this kind of thing has happened at tech conferences more than once. Bravo for having the courage to speak up.
To your interlocutor “Jo” in the comments section:
Your concerns are . . . strange. It happened to her. She was therefore the primary witness. Therefore, she can testify as to what happened. Therefore, she is hardly “without proof” and the statement is far from “baseless.”
In the US, as Jim pointed out, true statements are never libel, no matter how damaging. However, that is only in the US, and not universal.
In the UK, damaging statements may be libel even if true, but to that I would add two points:
One, for the accused to deny it publicly and cast aspersions on her character in return (referred to as “slut shaming” above) would equally be libel, as it would in turn be damaging to her reputation. Any suit filed under those circumstances would at the very least invite an immediate countersuit.
Two, rather than freedom of speech the UK has freedom of press, which applies to fewer people but is more absolute. This is a blog, which – depending on how a court feels about the particulars – may fall under the definition of “press.” I am not as familiar with UK law governing speech as I am with US law. If there is a real legal concern here, a qualified attorney or barrister should be consulted. But there exists the possibility that a judge would decline to hear libel suits from either side on this matter for writing about it publicly – especially if it becomes a criminal case instead.
In any case – fear of a lawsuit should never prevent someone from speaking out when they are violated.
Ugh I’m so sorry to hear that. It’s a shame people think they can get away with that. I hope the community proves them wrong.
I’m still pretty shocked by this. And I completely lack the words, but I’m truly sorry this happen to you. You absolutely did the right thing to post this and hopefully prevent this from happening to anyone else in the future. This was my first ApacheCon so I don’t know you directly or frankly anyone at the conference, but it did appear to me (as an outsider of sorts) that there is a strong sense of community and friendship among everyone. I hope you find the support from your colleagues during this period.
Noirin, I was sorry to hear this happened to you. Speaking out about it is a brave thing to do – and my thoughts will be with you during the inevitable shitstorm.
Kirrily, what can conference co-ordinators do, specifically, to prevent things like this from happening? Aside from acting swiftly & firmly when made aware of incidents (and, I suppose, providing a clear, discrete way for people to make us aware), and in general cultivating a culture where stuff like this doesn’t happen, I don’t really know what we can do. Less alcohol?
Dave.
Jo you’re blaming the victim. Stop being part of the problem.
That’s fucked up and fucked you had to go though that.
As for Jo *eyeroll* there’s always one, isn’t there?
I hate it when guys do shit like this… and guys “I was drunk” is no excuse for your actions… please be thinking humans not mindless animals… youd be pissed if someone did this to your sister or mom… so why would you do it to someones sister or mom…
Noírín, I’m so sorry this happened. There is no excuse for this and it is never, ever your fault. Party or no party, we should be expected to treat each other with respect.
Name ‘em and shame ‘em, silence only fuels the sex offenders who think it’s OK and get away with it time after time after time. This is not OK, it is not trivial, and there is no way to excuse it, though I expect excuses and denials will be offered. You are brave to speak up, and it will help other women.
thanks for being so brave, speaking out, naming names.
i’m so sorry this happened to you.
I’m so sorry this happened to you, Noirin. You’re in my thoughts.
Reading this made me both angry and glad. Angry that it happens, and glad that you chose to speak out about it. I did the same, recently, only it was someone I knew and considered a friend. I broke off my contact with the individual in question, and I told everyone who was a mutual friend why. I’ve definitely taken some flak for it.
It’s worth it. It’s more than worth it. It’s as Michael said – when we stay silent, we foster the environment that allows them to continue doing such things again and again and again. Silence hurts everyone by allowing the person to have no consequences for their actions. Forget that.
So thank you, for writing this.
Jo, I’m not saying she isn’t putting herself at risk for getting taken to court for libel, I agree with you on that. I’m saying its worth the risk.
Christie — I think Jo’s point was that they could sue you even if it were a true statement. It’s all about what you can prove in court. It’s a ridiculous line of thought since the chances of a sexual predator suing you for libel probably aren’t too high.
Noirin, I’m so sorry this happened to you, and I want to thank you for speaking up.
This sucks. He fails. It’s so easy to prevent sexual assault. Just don’t sexually assault people!
I ought to be shocked, but sadly I’m not. I’ve seen this all too many times at conferences – and not just the geeky techie open ones, even at “professional” or academic events.
There seems to be a culture that normal rules are suspended when you head away from home and the office for a few days, and that what happens at the conference stays at the conference.
Recently I had to spend pretty much a whole conf making sure one of my colleagues didn’t pester female delegates. And this was at the direct request of the conf organiser, not me being some sort of martyr.
Well I’m glad you’ve spoken out Noirin – the more women that do hopefully the less we’ll _all_ have our events screwed up by this kind of behaviour.
I shall repeat this a second time for those who can’t seem to understand plain English (that means you, UGH – super mature retort, btw):
I am not accusing Noirin of lying.
I do not think it is ok for someone to commit a sexual assault.
My concern was purely centred on the fact Noirin identified this man by name on a publicly accessible blog.
*lots of e-hugs*
I’m sorry this happened to you
I’m so sorry you went through this, and angry that this happened. You have all my support, thank you for speaking up, it’s the only way to put a stop on this absurd.
Jo,
Truth is an absolute defense to libel.
Noirin, I’m so sorry.
Jim
*hugs*
Not cool.
@Jo:
It doesn’t matter what gender identities are involved, it’s absolutely not acceptable. Unfortunately men think that they can get away with it against women more than any other combination. He’s a (form of) troll, he needs to be called out for unacceptable behaviour.
It doesn’t matter if I’m wearing tight pants and get my ass inappropriately groped (yes, this has happened; and I was told “(my) pants were asking for it”), or if a woman is wearing a skirt and has similar; it’s NOT acceptable, and needs to be prevented from happening.
See the Back Up Project as well.
Jo. Please go away before I vomit on you.
Thanks to all for your support.
Jo, thanks for pointing out the legal concern. I certainly didn’t post without thinking about it, but I think speaking out is important enough that I’m willing to take that risk – along with the risks of slut-shaming and other backlash.
Reporting such attacks to the police help to protect women from such assaults. Noirin, have you reported it?
I’m sorry Noirin. I’m glad you spoke out.
Maybe the ancient time when so called men grabbed women by the hairs is not that far away. I expected that thousands and thousands of years of civilization and education could have helped, but it seems that the lizard part of the brain is still vivid in many of us. And some men can’t get over it, up to a point that even a ‘no’ is not part of their vocabulary…
What upset me the most is that it’s almost an acceptable behavior to many men : considering women as trophies.
It’s just disgusting.
This has to change. Now.
Jo, actually you can name someone who has assaulted you (or committed any other crime). Naming one’s attacker can help protect other people in the community.
So completely horrible that this happened. Thank you, thank you for speaking up, and for making it clear who was to blame, who wasn’t, and that this shit will not stand.
Noirin — So sorry this happened to you. I appreciate your courage in speaking out.
Jo — I believe libel only applies to false statements. Truthful statements, or statements made in good faith and belief that they were true don’t count, even if they are harmful.
You are so brave. I’m really sorry you had to go through that and any other similar experiences. You’re right – you are not to blame for the choices others make. A woman can show as much of her body as she damn well pleases: that doesn’t mean anyone’s allowed to touch it.
Jo: It’s not for a court to decide whether or not she was assaulted. It’s for HER to decide. She was THERE. It happened TO her. You’re speaking nonsense.
You should really gen up on the law surrounding this sort of thing, Peter.
Jo, This isn’t an accusation made lightly. Even if it were libel the accused still has legal recourse, it’s not like her post was anonymous. Women shouldn’t stay quiet, that’s just asking for more of these incidents to happen in our communities.
I’m not sure whether I should laugh or be absolutely horrified that people think I am defending someone who allegedly committed a sexual assault.
If you read my post again, you’ll see that my point is that you cannot go around NAMING someone you are accusing of committing a criminal act when said person has not been convicted of said act.
By all means blog about it, report it to the police (and I hope N has!) but naming the person is potentially highly libelous and I was just pointing that out.
I was shocked to read this, when I’m around open source people I always feel that we are Good People (TM), to hear how something like this is very upsetting.
I agree with Kirrily Robert, this is not OK, and we should clearly send that message. Have you filed charges with the police?
I’m sorry this happened to you. You’re right to speak out about it and call out the attacker.
Jo, yes, it is her word. I know her and I trust her word, but others might now. Why should she call him out? If he’s done this to others, maybe they’ll speak out too. Then it won’t be just her word. If she keeps silent, that can never happen. If she anonymizes it, that can never happen.
If others have been harassed at cons and wasn’t sure if it was ok to speak about it, to name names, because it’s just their word, maybe they’ll read this and the supportive comments and speak out.
It always starts with one person’s word against another’s. Predators strike when the victim is alone. They bank on doubt and silence to protect them. That allows them to do it again and again. The way to fight back is to not be silent, to communicate, make it known, and try to connect with other’s who have been attacked. Then it’s not just one person’s word or one isolated incident. And it’s not ok.
OFFS… Wear something different? Not have a beer? Have people actually been foolish enough to make these suggestions? Would they do the same to a man?
Newsflash, world! Grope No One Without Permission. Don’t. Just don’t.
Really, is that so hard? It’s not even a gender-specific rule and it seems easy enough to remember and follow, but it seems some people just don’t grok it yet.
I can understand why you haven’t made a post like this before (but not why you would have had the need; see the rule above) but am glad that you did it now. More people need to know that this bullshit happens and who the perpetrators are. The overwhelming majority of us–female and male both–have your back and support you. I suspect that had you said something afterward to the people in the bar that night the world may be one Hadoop user lighter right now, but I understand and respect why you didn’t.
Thanks to Skud for the link. All respectable conferences should work this stuff into their policies and do so publicly. If they openly announce a zero tolerance policy for assault and harassment then perhaps jerks like this will get the clue.
That’s terrible! Thank you for speaking out.
And to Jo, there is a double standard, because when men do this to women, they often gloat about it amongst themselves, naming names, and get patted on the back for it. It’s only libel if the accusation is not true, and where the burden of proof for that (and even whether it’s against the law) depends on what state you live in. IANAL, but I’m guessing neither are you.
The problem with rape and other sexual assault is there are usually no witnesses other than the victim and the perp. Which is why so many men get away with it. Noirin knows what happened, so the accusation is not “baseless”.
Jo, I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that it isn’t the first time she’s posted about it because, as she said, it isn’t the first time it’s happened.
The attitude inherent in your comment– your default assumption that it’s *not* okay to say what happened or name names– is EXACTLY THE REASON WHY it isn’t the first time it happened.
Norin thank you for speaking out about this difficult awful situation.
Jo, men assault women at tech conferences because they can get away with it. One reason they can get away with it, that when survivors do speak out they get flack for it.
Jo, why do men think it’s OK to assault women at tech conferences? Because they get away with it. Why do they get away with it? Because nobody’s willing to confront them or make them take responsibility for their actions.
Good for you for speaking out, Noirin. I’m very sorry this happened to you, but think you handled it very well. I hope it’s dealt with swiftly and usefully in the community.
Please don’t think i’m accusing you of fabricating this story but it concerns me greatly that this isn’t the first time you have blogged about being sexual assaulted and named the men involved. Why do you think it is ok for you to do this?
I don’t know who Florian Leibert is but without any proof of what happened you have essentially libeled him by making a (technically) baseless allegation of sexual assault.
Grrr. I am so sorry and angry that this happened. How many times do we have to go through it before conferences start actually dealing with the problem?
I’d really like to see conferences have solid policies in place for dealing with this stuff. The Con Anti-Harassment Project has some good resources: http://www.cahp.girl-wonder.org/
Oh man. That really sucks and I’m sorry that happened to you. Good for you for calling out the assaulter.