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We punish those we should protect

It should be a source of national pride that Britain is thought a desirable destination by refugees

In September 2004, Tony Blair set out a new public sector performance target. By the end of the following year the number of failed asylum seekers being deported each month would exceed the number of new applicants.

This benchmark has come to be known as the asylum "tipping point", the implication being that too many migrants were taking sanctuary in Britain under false pretences and most should be swiftly dispatched to their countries of origin.

The target was missed, but only just, and not for want of trying. Relentless institutional pressure was applied to ship out as many people as possible if it was felt their claim to be refugees was bogus. The numerical imperative – maximum deportation – continues to set the tone in much discussion of asylum policy.

Some of the brutal consequences are now coming to light. An official report last week accused the UK Border Agency of failing to investigate claims of abuse in privately run detention centres for failed asylum seekers. An inquiry was set up in 2008 to investigate allegations that security officers were using excessive force when restraining detainees and that racial and physical abuse were rife.

Baroness O'Loan, the report's author, found that in two of the most serious incidents, detainees' injuries had "no satisfactory explanation". She also said that abuse could not be deemed "systematic", a finding that the Border Agency welcomed as a kind of exoneration.

But the report will not dispel the sense that something is rotten in Britain's asylum system. For the last six weeks a group of women at Yarl's Wood, an "immigration removal centre" in Bedfordshire, have been on hunger strike in protest against their treatment by guards.

Last week a Russian man, his wife and stepson fell to their death from a high-rise Glasgow tower block. They were shortly to have been evicted after their bid for refugee status had failed. Since 2003, there have been six suicides by asylum seekers housed in the same blocks.

Today the Observer reports compelling claims that authorities are failing in their duty to protect genuine refugees. The Medical Foundation for the Care of Victims of Torture, a charity that has conducted independent case analysis, accuses the Home Office of rejecting clinical evidence supporting asylum seekers' claims to have been tortured. Meanwhile, stories of assault, abuse and medical neglect continue to trickle out of Yarl's Wood and other such facilities.

A picture is emerging of a system in crisis, not because it is failing to deliver its objectives but because its zeal in pursuit of those objectives is making it inhumane.

But seen from the government's perspective, asylum policy is a success story. In the last three months of 2009, there were 4,765 new claims, a 30% reduction in the number of applications compared with the previous year and the lowest level since 1992. The fact that fewer people seek refuge in Britain proves, according to Phil Woolas, immigration minister, that "our border has never been stronger".

That might be true, but the boast contains a nasty subtext. The implication is that asylum applications are just another kind of immigration, one of the various channels that foreigners use to acquire the privilege of living in Britain; a breach in the fortress wall to be defended.

By extension, the 200,000 asylum seekers whose cases have yet to be ruled upon are viewed by many officials, and much of the public, as "illegals" in all but name. The task is to expose their lies and throw them overboard.

Around 70% of asylum applications fail. Even if the adjudication process is right every time that still means there are tens of thousands of genuine refugees in Britain in a state of desperate uncertainty. They are forbidden from working and cannot claim benefits while their cases are being processed, a measure designed to prove to the wider public that refugees do not take resources meant for the indigenous population. This too reveals the official assumption that most asylum seekers are really economic migrants.

The distinction is vital. It is Britain's duty under the 1951 UN refugee convention to protect people fleeing persecution. Since that treaty was signed, the world has changed enormously. Its population has become more mobile. It is part of the inevitable momentum of history that people from poorer places move to richer parts in search of new opportunities. That globalisation of labour poses huge challenges to immigration policy. But it must not diminish our sense of moral obligation to give sanctuary to refugees.

It is easier to condemn a broken system than to design a perfect one. There were grounds for the widespread suspicion a few years ago that asylum status was being fraudulently targeted as a shortcut to British residency. That public fear had to be addressed. But it was never proven that Britain was, as the Conservatives liked to allege, a "soft touch". Labour simply swallowed that charge and launched a crackdown.

It is worth pausing to consider what that really means. Who was it that Tony Blair decided should be targeted for expulsion from our shores? People whose lives might have been turned upside down by war. People who might have been tortured, raped, chased from their homes, the sole survivors of families destroyed in genocide. What does Britain now do with these people, including women and children, if their stories of torment and grief are not supported by the right documentation? It puts them in jail.

Tony Blair's targets did not create the culture of callous scorn that seems to have spread through the institutions that police Britain's borders. Both are symptoms of a society that sees asylum seekers as likely frauds. That prejudice is woven routinely into media reports and policy pronouncements.

It should be a source of national pride that Britain is thought a desirable destination by refugees, who have throughout history enriched the countries that welcome them. Instead, people who turn to us for help are vilified and punished for asking. It must also be possible to distinguish humanely between real and false claims to refugee status. The investment required is not financial, but political. It requires a leader who will look at the current system and say plainly what is there: cruelty, injustice and shame throughout.


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  • ChrissyLew ChrissyLew

    14 Mar 2010, 12:34AM

    Zimbabwe, Congo. How the hell did they end up in the UK? Why are we first port of call? How did they get here? Which countries did they pass through to get here?

  • architecton architecton

    14 Mar 2010, 12:35AM

    Quite right. The system is more geared up find justifications to refuse asylum than genuinely assess people's claims.

    But we've got a damn cheek to turf out economic migrants when we've got all manner of trade tariffs, IMF rules and support for kleptocratic dictators aligned with our geopolitical ends, all keeping our shareholders rich at the developing world's expense.

  • architecton architecton

    14 Mar 2010, 12:38AM

    ChrissyLew, you're buying into the hysteria that we're getting swamped with a disproportionate number of refugees, when really we're not.

    And where would you feel safe, maybe in a nice country?

  • smellthecoffee smellthecoffee

    14 Mar 2010, 12:45AM

    "People whose lives might have been turned upside down by war. People who might have been tortured, raped, chased from their homes, the sole survivors of families destroyed in genocide."

    And for every one of the above there are loads who lie about it. Aren't they the ones who should be ashamed about it rather than us? Anyway, why don't we put refugees up in the extra rooms of those middle class bungalows dotted around the country. Oh, i see, what you mean is you would rather they didn't live in your area.

    When you lead by example, then I'll listen.

  • JedBartlett JedBartlett

    14 Mar 2010, 12:47AM

    This would be more compelling if the UK authorities detained ALL immigrants in YW or in similar centres. Immigrants such as my wife however have no problem at the border for the simple reason that they are here without any question about their legality. My wife paid the fees, went through the system and has taken care to act within the law.

    The stark reality is that what these articles appear to propose is allowing people to vanish at will, very likely into the black economy. This country is not obligated to roll out beer and sandwiches for anyone who pitches up.

    However what is most worrying about the article is this,

    'What does Britain now do with these people, including women and children, if their stories of torment and grief are not supported by the right documentation? It puts them in jail.'

    Those who are detained are those about whom there is legitimate suspicion. Those people are given shelter, food, medical treatment and human rights lawyers. I have no problem whatsoever sleeping about compliance with democratic and humanitarian values.

  • Elke Elke

    14 Mar 2010, 12:51AM

    I think that being considered a haven of freedom for those fleeing prejudice, brutality and tyranny should be a positive thing, not something that gets the populace frothing at the mouth. How sad that their expectations of us are increasingly untrue - and how at odds Britain's reputation for even-handedness is with the database state and the woeful treatment of those merely looking for shelter from the storm.

  • JedBartlett JedBartlett

    14 Mar 2010, 1:08AM

    Elke - 'I think that being considered a haven of freedom for those fleeing prejudice, brutality and tyranny should be a positive thing'

    Well, few would probably disagree. But is that how we are seen? Are we seen as a safe haven or are we seen as an easy target. I have no doubt that there are legit asylum claims. Equally, I can not ignore the likelihood that those at Calais who are not claiming asylum in France might, just might, have a motive that is economic.

    A more interesting piece of research might be on motves of all immigrants (not just asylum-seekers) and to get a better idea of why it is that people come.

    As things stand however, the idea that freedom is uppermost in the mind of every asylum seeker is to hold reality on contempt.

  • SeanThorp SeanThorp

    14 Mar 2010, 1:10AM

    @ChrissyLew

    Zimbabwe, Congo. How the hell did they end up in the UK?

    Same way the UK ended up in Africa except in the opposite direction and with much less bloodshed and force. What's the official language of Zim? What goes around comes around, they call it karma.

  • triantafillos triantafillos

    14 Mar 2010, 1:11AM

    We punish those we should protect

    It should be a source of national pride that Britain is thought a desirable destination by refugees

    That used to be the case, many years ago, and that of course was for window dressing, political reasons shall i say.
    As for the Russian family mentioned, may I point out that according to home office figures, there 350 thousand Russians living in the SE. Most of them millionaires, not to mention the billionaires.
    According to the Pravda newspaper a few days ago, 68 thousand of them, are wanted back in Russia for tax offences.
    Now, is obvious to me that none of them will be sent back any time soon.
    They will be tortured. The only ones that WILL be sent back, are penniless asylum seekers, provided they do not commit suicide before deportation.

  • Batleymuslim Batleymuslim

    14 Mar 2010, 1:21AM

    Last week a Russian man, his wife and stepson fell to their death from a high-rise Glasgow tower block. They were shortly to have been evicted after their bid for refugee status had failed.

    And if we look into that man's past we find he was granted protected status by Canada in 2005 and he received his refugee status June 11, 2007. Maybe the reason why he was refused asylum status in the Uk is because he already had it from another country.

    In other words he wasn't our problem.

  • samuelpalin samuelpalin

    14 Mar 2010, 1:23AM

    Contributor Contributor

    @ChrissyLew

    Zimbabwe, Congo. How the hell did they end up in the UK? Why are we first port of call? How did they get here? Which countries did they pass through to get here?

    What your referring to, I guess, is the 'Third Safe Country' provision - refugees should request asylum in the first safe country they get to.

    That's all well and good, but:

    1. There is a lot of ocean just west of Africa, don't know if you've noticed. Refugees are required to request asylum in the first safe country they enter, not the closest.

    2. Other countries may refuse asylum (illegally, or dubiously). Does that mean we should?

    3. Has it ever occurred to you that, if refugees all went to the closest countries, some countries would get awfully full? We are an island. We are surround by stable democracies. We have far more economic ability than most countries to accept refugees. There is a moral, as well as a legal, imperative.

  • JedBartlett JedBartlett

    14 Mar 2010, 1:23AM

    SeanThorp - That might have some remote sense of credibility of the colonial regimes had not ended consensually decades ago.

    The fact that a person exists in a particular country that may or may not have been an ex colony does not give a God-given right to asylum. Can I claim asylum in Italy because of the Roman history of colonisation?

    Why not take up your arguments up with the government of Zim? In English if you must,

    Could it possibly be because you are more interested in using asylum as a political stick to beat the government of the day than you are in actually relieving suffering?

  • bertellie bertellie

    14 Mar 2010, 1:24AM

    Our reprehensible treatement of those seeking refuge is not new and will certainly not cease. We would much rather rest our lazy underworked, fat bodies until we can consume our next KFC and mouth off how the blacks, (add your own thick invecitive) are taking our jobs, (being the jobs we are both too fat, lazy and by now are too incompetent to do). I fucking depair.

  • bigfacedog bigfacedog

    14 Mar 2010, 1:24AM

    The guilty party when genuine asylum seekers are not given a fair deal are - as usual - the left elites - probably like the person who wrote this editorial.

    Asylum has been conflated with mass migration for economic purposes, a process which the left elites have deliberately encouraged as a means of retaining power.

    When Nulabour took power in 97 they had no intention of handing it back again. Mass migration was a clear political strategy to gerrymander.

  • JedBartlett JedBartlett

    14 Mar 2010, 1:29AM

    Apologies My 1:23 comment should have read

    SeanThorp - That might have some remote sense of credibility if the colonial regimes had not ended consensually decades ago.

    Why can't we have an edit function?

  • Elke Elke

    14 Mar 2010, 1:38AM

    JedBartlett - I'm not naïve enough to believe that our supposed liberty is the chief motive for all those who come to the UK. Nonetheless, I would quibble with your suggestion that those who choose not to stay in France are most likely doing it due to matters economic. France, for all its pomp and circumstance about being the 'berceau des droits de l'homme,' is notoriously lacking regarding its treatment of immigrants - life for an immigrant to France is all too often a life constricted to the banlieues. Those who come to Britain have more of a chance of integrating.

  • Battistan Battistan

    14 Mar 2010, 1:38AM

    'Other countries may refuse asylum (illegally, or dubiously). Does that mean we should?'

    No, but I doubt the criterion are that different in France, Spain, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Greece. Perhaps you could go check and report back in the interests of truth and fairness ?

  • JRBFoto JRBFoto

    14 Mar 2010, 1:38AM

    The way I see things are like, if we are in the middle of a recession...
    Why should we take on any Immigrants? There are just no more jobs in this country for it to be possible!

    We'd only be seeing

    higher taxes

    to help pay for all these peoples

    benefits

    , Maybe if there where jobs we could take on more people in this country, but from my perspective the only people who should be aloud to live and work in this country are British Citizens and people who have a genuine right to be here. For example people from countries that have been granted independence from Britan in the past like Zimbabwe, India, Pakistan, Jamaica, Canada and so on.

  • PaulBJ PaulBJ

    14 Mar 2010, 1:41AM

    This issue ties me up in knots.Because although in theory immigration
    and asylum should be totally seperate entities in reality that isn,t always
    the case.For it is a fact that some economic migrants have been using
    the asylum route to get into Britain.So what do we do with the people
    whose asylum claims are turned down but who are nevertheless
    desperate to stay here?

    This isn,t an easy blog to post on because we are dealing with human
    lives here.And the bottom line for this country has always got to be that
    if even one failed asylum seeker is sent back to their own country and
    either tortured or killed then our system of assessing asylum claims
    has clearly failed.But what of those who face no threat in their home
    countries but who either threaten to or actually kill themselves when faced
    with deportation.How does the UK Border Agency respond to those.?
    Sadly there are no easy answers to this one and anyone who suggests
    otherwise is totally lacking in humanity.

  • Battistan Battistan

    14 Mar 2010, 1:43AM

    "We are an island. We are surround by stable democracies. We have far more economic ability than most countries to accept refugees."

    Can you explain what this means ? France has double the geographic area and a roughly similar sized population to the UK. They treat their asylum seekers abysmally. Hence the many thousands living in camps on the Normandy coast, aching to get over the chanel.

    Yet Britain is still the bad guy of Europe ?

  • okonomiyaki okonomiyaki

    14 Mar 2010, 2:13AM

    For the final time: IT IS NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO TAKE CARE OF THE WORLD'S IMPOVERISHED!

    That responsibility lies with the governments of immigrants' respective countries. Many countries fail in this duty, and while I truly regret that the dice have fallen this way for so many people, that is, as they say, life.

    Furthermore, asylum / automatic immigration rights should not be granted to individuals from former British colonies full stop. They chose independence from Britain; ergo they are no longer our problem.

  • stesimbrotos stesimbrotos

    14 Mar 2010, 2:41AM

    As ever, this item conflates and equates asylum seekers with failed asylum seekers and with economic migrants and illegal immigrants.

    This inability and/or unwillingness of the media to distinguish between these 4 groups makes any sensible discussion impossible.

  • davidncldl davidncldl

    14 Mar 2010, 3:04AM

    The sooner we get out of the EU and the HRA the better. I don't blame people for lying to try to get into the UK. I'd do the same thing if I was in their position. But we don't have the resources and that's that. We cannot allow ourselves to go on being taken for a ride. My friend who works in the NHS completing assessments on asylum seekers says that medical staff are actually sick to death of being told by women that they have been gang raped by soldiers when there are -
    * No external injuries (bruising or abrasions)
    * No internal injuries
    * No STDs
    * No pregnancies
    It's used as a convenient story that is likely to garner maximum sympathy. Unfortunately the rampant abuse of the system undermines the credibiilty of the very very small number of people who have a genuine case as asylum seekers.

    Also, why are we giving millions in aid to countries that then force asylum seekers to seek refuge in the UK? It doesn't make sense. Why don't we simply stop giving the aid to the government agencies in those countries and simply give a small fixed sum to each person who arrives at a UK port of entry claiming asylum. We could then fly them back secure in the knowledge that we had given them a fantastic opportunity. It would cost the same. It would be humane. It would avoid chasing failed asylum seekers around the country.

  • farafield farafield

    14 Mar 2010, 3:48AM

    The UN treaty on Refugees 1951 is from another age as are much of the UN structures it did not and could not forsee the world as it is today. There is no way we can go on accepting refugees, asylum seekers, economic migrants and criminals . The cost is growing, there are not jobs,housing or health/eduction resources and we certainly cannot accept extended families . The current systerm is a shambles and it is the fault of the current goverment you cannot despite what a select group in London might think pump huge numbers into the country largely to poor white working class areas and expect a backlash it is not an overnight affair but it is coming and with economic receesion [ another goverment achievement ] it will be heightened and we now face the prospect of one or more BNP MPs in the near future . No London dwelling clown will be able to manage what occurs and it will come as a profound shock not smoothed over with terms like a racist minority involved or a minority of trouble makers.

  • Etoiles Etoiles

    14 Mar 2010, 4:50AM

    The UN treaty on Refugees 1951 is from another age as are much of the UN structures it did not and could not forsee the world as it is today.

    We actually really, really need to rethink our worldview about these issues. Many British people seem to be utterly oblivious to the reality: we are a tiny country - 0.7% of the world's population, with an ageing, shrinking demographic. It makes virtually no sense to me to talk about ethnic minorities in Britain now, unless you are talking about that ageing, shrinking population.

    When you add globalisation into the mix, you add fast and cheap communication, you add cheap and frequent jet travel, you add multiculturalism and dual nationality, the picture is further muddied. How on earth, in that context of a fluid, shrunken world, can, say 5m Scots be a dominant demographic group, against, say, 150m Nigerians? How can 3.5m Welsh be considered an ethnic majority and 160m Bangladeshis an ethnic minority? This is a fragile, precariously positioned country that is stuck in the mentality of a dominant, growing one.

    The paradigms of the 'fifties simply don't apply any more.

  • Cassiopeia9000 Cassiopeia9000

    14 Mar 2010, 5:25AM

    By extension, the 200,000 asylum seekers whose cases have yet to be ruled upon are viewed by many officials, and much of the public, as "illegals" in all but name. The task is to expose their lies and throw them overboard.

    200,000? How on Earth did we manage to build a backlog of claims that large, when the figures for asylum are roughly 25k a year (as far as I know)? Have officials playing Bejeweled for the past ten years?

    Although not every claim is going to be genuine, the numbers are small, and I think they're conflated with economic immigration (which isn't a small number). We should certainly process claims as quickly and as fairly as possible.

    One thing your article mentions and I'm now curious about, though: you say they can't claim benefits, and they can't work. I didn't know the former, but then how do they support themselves? There has to be some state provision, surely. Nobody expects asylum seekers to come to the country with enough money to tide them over until their claims are (eventually) processed.

  • OrangeHeart OrangeHeart

    14 Mar 2010, 5:36AM

    There is no doubt the Asylum system is in a chaotic mess, roundly abused by officials and applicants, but the truth is asylum seekers are regarded by majority of UK citizens as 'leeches'...
    Politicians as hypocritical as ever tap into public concerns toward asylum seekers for quick political gains. Behind the scenes the same politicians, many of whom have connections wih businesses making outrageous profits from cheap labour provided by undocumented migrant workers many of them underpaid and exploited, reap substancial financial rewards.
    While it is right for the public to express concerns toward perceived influx of strangers into their communities, it is left for the authorities to tidy up the asylum system, and explain to citizens why these people are being allowed into local communities. None of these is being done.
    Asylum seekers are a goldmine for politicians, if not Nick Griffin of BNP, and a mix of energetic conservatives, some labour and Lib dem hawks would have been of no relevance to any one of us.

  • medve medve

    14 Mar 2010, 5:50AM

    @Cassiopeia9000

    One thing your article mentions and I'm now curious about, though: you say they can't claim benefits, and they can't work. I didn't know the former, but then how do they support themselves? There has to be some state provision, surely. Nobody expects asylum seekers to come to the country with enough money to tide them over until their claims are (eventually) processed.

    They do receive an allowance which amounts to about 70% of "normal" benefit.

  • Berchmans Berchmans

    14 Mar 2010, 5:52AM

    Anonymous author.

    I would have been proud of myself if I had written this. A careful and positive approach to a very difficult situation. Much better than my F*** off you xenophobic, racist 6@57@rd5!! You should have signed it. Good one.

    B

  • Berchmans Berchmans

    14 Mar 2010, 6:09AM

    Batleymuslim

    .

    Re a Russian man, his wife and stepson fell to his death ( Glasgow)

    ## he wasn't our problem##

    .

    Thank goodness some of the people of the area who held the vigil thought differently. Thank goodness some still recognise their brother as everyone you meet.

    3 Russians in Glasgow RIP.

    B

  • MeinHerzBrent MeinHerzBrent

    14 Mar 2010, 6:31AM

    A noble sentiment. The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples' money - in New Labour's case, our money, our childrens' money and our childrens' childrens' money. There are simply not the resources to feed and house any more millions of the world's poor.

    Two things can happen now. We can limit overall immigration to a sustainable level to ensure that Britain does not become even more overcrowded and stretched in terms of its housing, transport, food, power and other resources. Or, we can watch as our living standards continue to drop until an equilibrium is reached in which the masses of asylum-seekers and economic migrants are likely to head for more attractive destinations like Bangladesh.

  • RudiGunn RudiGunn

    14 Mar 2010, 6:37AM

    There is only one reason why our country is the destination of choice for these people.

    We have loose asylum controls and a generous welfare system. That is not something to be proud of.

    End of discussion.

    Now that we are broke we need to become ruthless in our asylum processing.

    Claimants must be detained at point of entry.
    The first safe country provision must be ruthlessly enforced.
    Only applicants from a specified country list must be accepted (and Russia would not be on it, thus validating the decision in the Glasgow case,)
    All application must be processed in no more than five days.
    The legal right of appeal must be removed.
    Deportations must be immediate.
    Any failure to cooperate with the asylum process must be treated as a crime.

    We can no longer afford to subsidise the largely opportunist economic migrants who turn up with a pocketful of dreams and a sob story.

    The very, very few who qualify must be identified and allowed to stay quickly, the rest must be sent on their way.

  • dagenhamblue dagenhamblue

    14 Mar 2010, 6:47AM

    Yet again, the claims of asylum seekers, people who have entered or remained in our country illegally, are unquestioningly taken at face value; note "she was beaten", not "she claims she was beaten" etc. As part of my job I frequently deal with asylum seekers and the staff of those, mostly publicly funded, bodies which represent them and I'm afraid that all too often, people are told what to say either in their countries of origin or here in the UK. Even so, many of the stories are ludicrously, transparently, false; riddled with inconsistencies and palpable untruths. You never see these in the Guardian or Observer though.
    In my experience, people who have been genuinely ill treated in their own countries tend to be grateful and happy just to be here and helping them repair their lives goes some of the way to balancing the constant, disillusioning and demotivating feeling that my colleagues and I are being forced to collaborate in the organised plundering of the UK's welfare system and abuse of its limited public housing stocks.
    The "all welcome here" crowd should try explaining to an elderly couple who have worked here and paid taxes all their lives why they have to sell their home to pay for their care, or telling people forced to spend years in bedsits and bed and breakfast "hotels" why (for example) Somali or Albanian families are given council flatsand generous grants to furnish them.

  • Berchmans Berchmans

    14 Mar 2010, 6:58AM

    RudiGunn

    ##We can no longer afford to subsidise the largely opportunist economic migrants ##

    .

    It is the motivated..the able bodied that will pick our crops for a few quid an hour. You can show immigration is normally a very positive thing. Blairgowrie fields ..midges first thing , then raspberries and then midges last thing. Not for the faint hearted.

    B

  • RudiGunn RudiGunn

    14 Mar 2010, 7:02AM

    Berchmans
    14 Mar 2010, 6:58AM
    RudiGunn

    ##We can no longer afford to subsidise the largely opportunist economic migrants ##

    .

    It is the motivated..the able bodied that will pick our crops for a few quid an hour. You can show immigration is normally a very positive thing. Blairgowrie fields ..midges first thing , then raspberries and then midges last thing. Not for the faint hearted.

    B

    Migrationwatch shot that Fox a long time ago.

    Unless they earn over £27,000 p.a. they are a net drain on our resources.

    How many fruit pickers do that?

  • okonomiyaki okonomiyaki

    14 Mar 2010, 7:24AM

    @sensi

    "As things stand, however, it just makes you sound like a pompous twat."

    That's a bit personal for CiF, don't you think?

    "All I can say in respone is that I hope you are never faced with having to seek refuge in another country."

    Heh, heh, I have actually, but the difference is I didn't expect the Japanese government to roll out the red carpet for me and shower me with benefits. I pay my own way, thank you, and that's the way it should be with migrants in the U.K.

  • ratherbehappy ratherbehappy

    14 Mar 2010, 7:38AM

    smellthecoffee

    I don't think I am middle class, but I would throw open my door to anyone seeking refuge. I am ashamed at the treatment some refugees get.

    I used to live in an area of Glasgow where there were many refugees and haven spoken to a good few of them, I was then so proud to be part of a city that made them welcome.

    It's a pity so many people in this country drive policy through their ignorance, hatred, selfishness and xenophobia.

    Why wait for a lead? Would it really change your attitudes if I post next week telling you I have taken in a refugee?

  • ratherbehappy ratherbehappy

    14 Mar 2010, 7:46AM

    RudiGunn: We can no longer afford to subsidise the largely opportunist economic migrants who turn up with a pocketful of dreams and a sob story.

    Three people taking their lives from a high rise balcony isn't a sob story. What would drive people to such despair? Never think on that?

  • ratherbehappy ratherbehappy

    14 Mar 2010, 7:50AM

    MeinHerzBrent: Or, we can watch as our living standards continue to drop until an equilibrium is reached in which the masses of asylum-seekers and economic migrants are likely to head for more attractive destinations like Bangladesh.

    About the most ridiculous comment I have ever read on CiF. Did you cut and paste that from a Daily Mail comment perhaps? ...

  • 1nn1t 1nn1t

    14 Mar 2010, 7:52AM

    architecton
    14 Mar 2010, 12:35AM

    But we've got a damn cheek to turf out economic migrants when we've got all manner of trade tariffs, IMF rules and support for kleptocratic dictators aligned with our geopolitical ends, all keeping our shareholders rich at the developing world's expense.

    Up to you really. It's all that wealth acquired 'at the developing world's expense' that pays for the Welfare State.

  • Berchmans Berchmans

    14 Mar 2010, 7:56AM

    RudiGunn

    (( immigration is normally a very positive thing. ))

    ## Migrationwatch shot that Fox a long time ago. Unless they earn over £27,000 p.a. ##

    .

    There are other benefits apart from financial considerations. If it would help us understand that the people we are killing in our wars are people just like us then subsidising them is fine by me.

    Are you old enough to remember what our diet was like a generation ago? Do you want chips with that fried Mars bar?

    B

  • RudiGunn RudiGunn

    14 Mar 2010, 8:02AM

    ratherbehappy
    14 Mar 2010, 7:46AM
    RudiGunn: We can no longer afford to subsidise the largely opportunist economic migrants who turn up with a pocketful of dreams and a sob story.

    Three people taking their lives from a high rise balcony isn't a sob story. What would drive people to such despair? Never think on that?

    As I understand it, the gentleman in question believed that the Canadian government were engaged in a conspiracy to kill the Queen.

    Clearly his ship had departed its moorings. Such people will do anything and their deaths have no bearing on the immigration debate and no relevance to the point I made.

  • physiocrat physiocrat

    14 Mar 2010, 8:07AM

    It should be a source of national pride that Britain is thought a desirable destination by refugees

    No, it is just that English is the most commonly learnt language. It would be more a source of national pride if fewer Brits were thinking of emigrating.

    That said, I cannot understand how so many people are coming in - in my experience British immigration control treat people as if they had been caught committing a crime, arrested and taken into custody for questioning. They act like prison warders. In fact, I have wondered if they ARE prison warders and are given the job as a break from looking after the convicts.

  • RudiGunn RudiGunn

    14 Mar 2010, 8:08AM

    Berchmans
    14 Mar 2010, 7:56AM
    RudiGunn

    (( immigration is normally a very positive thing. ))

    ## Migrationwatch shot that Fox a long time ago. Unless they earn over £27,000 p.a. ##

    There are other benefits apart from financial considerations.

    We are broke. Financial considerations are the most important ones, by a mile.

    If it would help us understand that the people we are killing in our wars are people just like us then subsidising them is fine by me.

    Nonsense on stilts. Total red herring. Another example of your inability to understand logic or engage in a sensibile debate.

    We are engaged in one illegal foreign war. By your logic therefore we should welcome Afghan refugees with open arms. This says nothing about the many asylum seekers from all the countries on the globe, where we have no troops and are not engaged

    Subsidising the economic migrants of the world is not fine by me. If you think your view would prevail then why have no parties made it a feature of their manefesto? Ill tell you why. Because most people would agree with me, and not you.

    Are you old enough to remember what our diet was like a generation ago? Do you want chips with that fried Mars bar?

    B

    Comments like this convince me you are on drugs.

    This is a discussion about immigration. Your comment has less than no relevance.

    I know you think you are trying to help but I think you should retire the field and leave it to someone whose thoughts remain coherent for the majority of the day.

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