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Who are the real Greeks?

A controversial plan to grant citizenship to second-generation immigrants has caused a widespread outcry in Greece

The Greeks are known the world around as a hospitable, openhearted people, and, in my experience, they genuinely are. In view of that, as well as the fact that Greek immigrants have lived and worked in the US, Germany, Australia and elsewhere for decades, one would expect a general consensus on pro-immigrant policies in Greece. But a recent government legislative proposal that will grant citizenship to second-generation immigrants born in Greece has caused a widespread, intense outcry.

The white paper for the legislation was uploaded on the government's debate blog. The "gems" I read posted there tied my stomach in a knot: "The motherland is endangered"; "This law constitutes high treason. It amounts to legalised settlement-building in the country by hordes of illiterate, impoverished Muslims"; and, most popularly, "You are born Greek, you don't become Greek". Elsewhere on the web, the prevailing conspiracy theory is that immigrants from Northern Africa bring diseases, those from the Middle East import terrorism, the ones from the poorer Balkan countries in the north are claiming Greece's territory and that all this is a co-ordinated coalition of international dark forces, aimed at depriving the Greeks of their land and national identity. More alarmingly, in a rare act of violence against the Jewish population of Greece, the synagogue in Crete's town of Chania has suffered two arson attacks in the space of ten days.

Worrisome as these outbursts of racism are, one could argue that they are not indicative of the average Greek's feelings on the matter. Yet a poll published in the Greek paper Eleftherotypia last Saturday does not help paint a clearer picture: 53% of those asked agreed that second-generation immigrants should be granted citizenship; 50% believed that immigrants pose a threat to the country and another 50% that they adversely affect national identity. However, 80% stated that any racist behaviour should be punished and 70% were in favour of the slogan "we are all different – we are all equal".

Greek immigration policy has historically been absent or ineffectual. The country is an external EU border and because of its geographical position, it is the first stop every year for thousands of immigrants and refugees, seeking a better economic environment or fleeing war zones. The policy vacuum results in several thousand people living on the margins of Greek law and society, culminating – as has happened elsewhere in Europe and the US – in an increase in criminality. Current economic insecurity exacerbates the concern about local jobs lost to immigrants; this too is common across the developed world.

One must also keep in mind that Greece is one of the least ethnically diverse countries in Europe. Population exchanges to achieve a high level of homogeneity were the most common policy of population engineering that came after the end of the first world war. By the mid-1920s, claims to national purity were rather well founded: approximately 99% of the inhabitants of Greece considered themselves ethnically Greek and religiously Greek Orthodox Christians. This has traditionally played an instrumental role in national politics, especially when sovereignty and identity are thought to be "at stake".

The current political climate is also contributing adversely to the debate about the proposed law. In the October elections, Pasok swept the votes of the centre of the political spectrum. The major opposition party, Nea Dimokratia – an uncomfortable coalition of conservatives, liberals and generic "centrists" – is now vying for votes further on the right, where the party's new leader Antonis Samaras belongs. Nea Dimokratia is trying to squeeze out Laos, a typical small nationalist-populist party represented in parliament. This situation has practically moved the mainstream debate regarding immigration to more extreme argumentation, with ND outright rejecting the law proposal and Laos demanding a referendum over the issue, while accusing the government of social and political engineering and tampering with the composition of the electorate.

Three different factors are therefore contributing to the widespread disapproval of what seems to be a fair law. The first is traditional sentiment – though less prominent in the younger generations – that Greece is a country of Greeks and the rest are, normally unwelcomed, guests. The second is the policy vacuum, which has led to a rise of illegal immigration and failure in social integration giving citizens plausible reasons to fear for their jobs and safety. The third is the current political environment and the role of Nea Dimokratia in particular, which multiplies the impact the previous two factors have on public opinion.

Greek public opinion must not join the bandwagon of European rightwingers, driven by a rejection of non-Christians and fuelled by economic uncertainty. It is up to moderate governments, Greece's included, to ensure that irrationality is extracted from the immigration debate. It is their responsibility to push forward well-designed, well-implemented policies that will protect their countries' social, political and economic stability while integrating legal immigrants. If they fail, these governments will be more responsible than the Euro-nationalists for what will ensue.


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Who are the real Greeks? | Matina Stevis

This article was published on guardian.co.uk at 14.30 GMT on Wednesday 20 January 2010.

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  • haward haward

    20 Jan 2010, 2:36PM

    Oh Dear ; CIF's headbanger community blogs in Greece too on this topic

    "The white paper for the legislation was uploaded on the government's debate blog. The "gems" I read posted there tied my stomach in a knot: "The motherland is endangered"; "This law constitutes high treason. It amounts to legalised settlement-building in the country by hordes of illiterate, impoverished Muslims"; and, most popularly, "You are born Greek, you don't become Greek". "

    I can't wait for them to get started here. Just copy & paste from the stuff you posted last week lads...............

  • MamaDumb MamaDumb

    20 Jan 2010, 2:42PM

    Prince Philip (AKA Phil the Greek) for one.

    Then there's Kizbot.

    Err.. Those are all the ones I can think of.

    - Except for Kojak, but he's dead so I don't know if he counts.

  • gkelly gkelly

    20 Jan 2010, 2:44PM

    Why must Greeks not join in the rejection of non-Christians? Why are people not allowed to prefer cultural homogeneity to cultural heterogeneity? Academic studies have now made clear that the loss of cultural homogeneity brings with it serious costs to any society: both financial costs and more intangible costs such as loss of trust in other people and an increase in bureaucratisation generally.

    Multi-culturalism has failed and there is now broad acceptance that it has failed. The attempt to integrate culturally dissimilar immigrants into Europe has had seriously adverse consequences for society as a whole. Indisputably bad things have happened has a result which would not have happened otherwise. Who are you to tell people that they "must" accept more of this and that they are evil if they choose not to?

  • FalseConsciousness FalseConsciousness

    20 Jan 2010, 2:46PM

    Excellent article, Matina. I am grateful for your thoughtful and humane position on this issue, contrary to blind hatred and ignorance I always see below the line. This is a global problem, not just a Greek problem. The decline in living standards across Europe over the last few decades as well as the current economic crisis has allowed nationalists to gain a foothold in establishment politics. The lack of any genuine socialist parties in Europe has driven many to fall under the spell of reactionary, know-nothing opportunists. Countries in the Middle East and beyond have also ratcheted up discrimination against minorities to distract from their own class-biased policies.

  • monnie monnie

    20 Jan 2010, 2:46PM

    Greek public opinion must not join the bandwagon of European rightwingers

    Er, says who? Greek public opinion is what it is. You don't call the shots.

    Maybe Europeans are getting tired of authoritarian liberals telling us how to think.

  • hairything hairything

    20 Jan 2010, 2:47PM

    One must also keep in mind that Greece is one of the least ethnically diverse countries in Europe. Population exchanges to achieve a high level of homogeneity were the most common policy of population engineering that came after the end of the first world war. By the mid-1920s, claims to national purity were rather well founded: approximately 99% of the inhabitants of Greece considered themselves ethnically Greek and religiously Greek Orthodox Christians.

    Is this a real statistic or a made up one? When Greece and Turkey exchanged populations religion was the sole criteria by which ethnicity was determined. I find it hard to accept that in the mid-1920s all Turkish-speaking Christians in Greece, many of whom could barely understand Greek, all considered themselves Greek.

  • PhilipD PhilipD

    20 Jan 2010, 2:48PM

    I must admit I'm a bit surprised to learn that second generation immigrants are not entitled to citizenship. I assumed it was the law in all EU countries that those born on its soil were entitled to citizenship, except for certain restricted categories. What if the home country of their parents does not give them citizenship (as would certainly be the case with political refugees)?

  • Yanpol Yanpol

    20 Jan 2010, 2:49PM

    As a supporter of ius soli, I welcome this law... and I'm glad that the majority of Greeks (53%) agree. The party who's espousing this move also has the democratic mandate to introduce it, so I hope they don't chicken back. Sad grief to the fascists of LAOS and their ilk, but that's democracy for them.

  • trojancourse trojancourse

    20 Jan 2010, 2:50PM

    Contributor Contributor

    I wrote this 3 days ago. Since then, the UNHCR representative has met with the Greek prime minister and praised the legislative proposal as being a. in line with European best practice and b. a good foundation upon which a solid integration policy can be built. I look forward to debating this calmly here...

  • BrigateGrosse BrigateGrosse

    20 Jan 2010, 2:51PM

    Well you participants may sneer, but peoples that keep themselves "racially pure", don't look great In any case, we are not talking Darwin - here we are talking about a a racist reaction to a perfectly sensible and indeed normal rule for second generation children. Why would you deny the rights of citizenship to the children? That is barbarism.

  • MiskatonicUniversity MiskatonicUniversity

    20 Jan 2010, 2:52PM

    This kind of sectarian purity is just the flipside of the likes of the Muslim Brotherhood on the other side of the Meditteranean (see their comments on Christians in government, and on the presence of Shia Muslims).

    Yet, the Muslim Brotherhood are seen in some quarters as "progressive". Why?

    Aren't all racists equal?

  • hairything hairything

    20 Jan 2010, 2:52PM

    PhilipD:

    I must admit I'm a bit surprised to learn that second generation immigrants are not entitled to citizenship. I assumed it was the law in all EU countries that those born on its soil were entitled to citizenship, except for certain restricted categories. What if the home country of their parents does not give them citizenship (as would certainly be the case with political refugees)?

    That's not the case in the UK. It was the case when I was born, but the then government changed the law in I think 1984, so people born in the UK are no longer automatically entitled to UK citizenship.

  • trojancourse trojancourse

    20 Jan 2010, 2:54PM

    Contributor Contributor

    @ Hairything: In the 1920s-1930s, after the population exchange that you seem to be familiar with, it is an accepted statistic that around 1% of the total population were not self-identified Greeks. The Muslim community you mention, which still lives in Thrace today, were in that 1%. Naturally, the statistics have changed since the.

  • Yanpol Yanpol

    20 Jan 2010, 2:56PM

    monnie,

    Er, says who? Greek public opinion is what it is. You don't call the shots.

    Neither do you. The Greeks have voted the PASOK in and the right wingers out. This government has the popular mandate not to cave in to the bandwagon of continental European rightwingers. Electoral results show this, as left wing parties have more than 55% of the votes if you take the communists, the radical left and the greens into account. As the author shows, the majority of the Greek population consulted (53%) seems to support this law.

    Maybe the Greeks are getting tired of authoritarian conservatives like Monnie who don't even read the articles they comment on.

  • haward haward

    20 Jan 2010, 2:56PM

    trojancourse ; you look forward to hundreds of anti immigration comments & dozens of bloggers muttering about the rights of the indigenous & about the destruction of our beloved Western culture. If you have ever seen a CiF on the topic of immigration you do not look forward to a clam debate. Just make sure the nutters don't have your mobile 'phone number

  • Yanpol Yanpol

    20 Jan 2010, 2:58PM

    I must admit I'm a bit surprised to learn that second generation immigrants are not entitled to citizenship.

    That not the case in Italy and Spain either, but things might be change in the future.

  • TheWeathermen TheWeathermen

    20 Jan 2010, 2:59PM

    It is sad that such comments are made in Greece, but there are racists everywhere and the spectre of the" Vigilante Man" haunts many countries. These poor immigrants, most of whom merely seek work and a better life are entitled to the rights of the country they live in. Why should their children not have citizenship of the country where they were born, whatever the status of their parents?

  • hairything hairything

    20 Jan 2010, 2:59PM

    trojancourse:

    @ Hairything: In the 1920s-1930s, after the population exchange that you seem to be familiar with, it is an accepted statistic that around 1% of the total population were not self-identified Greeks. The Muslim community you mention, which still lives in Thrace today, were in that 1%. Naturally, the statistics have changed since the.

    Well, the Jews of Thessaloniki alone constituted approximately 1% of Greece's total population then.

    But my main quibble with the bit I quoted was the "self-identified" part of it. Greek identity was something that many Turkish speaking Christians had thrust upon them.

  • CanWeNotKnockIt CanWeNotKnockIt

    20 Jan 2010, 3:01PM

    PhilipD:
    I must admit I'm a bit surprised to learn that second generation immigrants are not entitled to citizenship. I assumed it was the law in all EU countries that those born on its soil were entitled to citizenship, except for certain restricted categories. What if the home country of their parents does not give them citizenship (as would certainly be the case with political refugees)?

    I thought I might have misread the proposed law until I saw your confirmation.
    Scarcely believable that people born there are not automatically citizens and if it isn't EU law it ought to be.

  • CapnB CapnB

    20 Jan 2010, 3:01PM

    While working in a remote part of Greece, I had a friend who's father had emigrated to Canada taking his sons. Years later my friend returned to claim his inheritance, a scrap of land and a shack. His relatives had helped themselves to his land over the years and treated him like some bastard son, although they worshipped his children who had been born in Greece. As a foreigner working their, I experienced what some would describe as rascism, but no outward hostility.
    Some areas are very remote and I don't think the gene pool had been diluted for decades.

  • NapoleonKaramazov NapoleonKaramazov

    20 Jan 2010, 3:02PM

    "One must also keep in mind that Greece is one of the least ethnically diverse countries in Europe."

    Is that a crime.
    Remember on the cif there is a running joke about 'vibrancy', whenever describing a multicultural inner area. How we laugh.

    This whole article seems to be about how Greece has failed to live up to the Guardian's self appointed standards, that everything should be fluid, all borders are open, traditions broken down, removal of national identity.

    As a liberal minded person, I would rather the Greeks had the choice to decide their own affairs, than have to follow the 'corrrect way' as espoused by the Guardianistas. If those affairs are too politically incorrect for the Guardian mindset, then so be it. Similarly the Swiss minarets, self determination versus liberal agenda dicating that thigns have to be done in a certain (pc) way. I do not find the Swiss minaret ban particularly tasteful, but that is what the Swiss people have chosen.

    Democracy and self determination trumps moralising and the liberal elite's bien pensant thought of the month anyway.

  • Quixotematic Quixotematic

    20 Jan 2010, 3:03PM

    "we are all different ? we are all equal"

    Does not exclude:

    "we are all different ? we are all equal - but we are not all Greek"

    Tajfel's work on Social Identity dates back to WWII. Shame so few people seem to have understood it.

  • Herilane Herilane

    20 Jan 2010, 3:05PM

    It's not surprising that the Greeks are worried about being colonized and losing more territory.

    People often talk about the great multicultural Greek empire but the lands with the largest non-Greek populations have now been lost to other cultures and become a part of other countries.

    I'm frequently reminded of this when I read articles like the one below:

    "A Turkish archaeologist has called on his government to demand that Italy return the bones of St Nicholas to their original resting place.

    The 3rd Century saint - on whom Santa Claus was modelled - was buried in the modern-day town of Demre in Turkey.
    [...]
    He was born in what was then the Greek city of Myra in the third century, and went on to become the local bishop, with a reputation for performing miracles and secretly giving gold to the needy - on one occasion being forced to climb down a chimney to leave his donation.

    After his death he was canonised as Saint Nicholas, and venerated in much of the Christian world. But when Myra was occupied by Arab forces in the 11th Century, Italian sailors came and took the saint's bones to the port of Bari, where they remain interred to this day. "

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8432314.stm

  • boule boule

    20 Jan 2010, 3:07PM

    least ethnically diverse

    This probably means "least culturally diverse". The Greek state, in the 20th century, had to absorb greek-speaking people (and others) from the Balkans, Black Sea, Anatolia, Middle East, Central Asia.

  • gkelly gkelly

    20 Jan 2010, 3:11PM

    Why should their children not have citizenship of the country where they were born, whatever the status of their parents?

    Because it will encourage more illegal immigration if illegal immigrant parents can be sure that their children will have citizenship status even if they do not.

  • Optymystic Optymystic

    20 Jan 2010, 3:13PM

    What?

    Greek immigrants have lived and worked in the US, Germany, Australia and elsewhere for decades

    No mention of Wood Green, then, did you think you were writing for the New York Times? Last time I was in Crete it was definitely Wood Green Hotspur they were showing on the local telly.

    I'm glad someone's mentioned Macedonia. Perhaps if all Greeks think they are Greek, then none of them are Macedonians.

    Again, as correctly pointed out the Greeks are not alone in this kind of doctrine of national identity. Perhaps the Greek migrants learned it when working in German as Gastarbheiter who could never acquire nationality whereas Volga Germans whose ancestors left two hundred years earlier could claim nationality instantly.

  • iamsterman iamsterman

    20 Jan 2010, 3:14PM

    Isn´t it also true that people from Turkey and Morocco, to name two examples I´m aware of, do not lose their nationality when they emigrate. Their children retain their ethnic citizenship, whether they are citizens or not in their new countries. If the home country wants to retain a grip on their diaspora in that way, isn´t it natural that the host country is reticent about giving citizenship to these people? It should work both ways.

  • Herilane Herilane

    20 Jan 2010, 3:20PM

    @CanWeNotKnockIt

    "I thought I might have misread the proposed law until I saw your confirmation.
    Scarcely believable that people born there are not automatically citizens and if it isn't EU law it ought to be."

    It really shouldn't be enacted into law in the EU.

    That's the situation they have in the States and it results in people traveling to the States while pregnant to have babies in the US so their children will be citizens of that country. That allows the parents to use family reunification laws to migrate into the US.

    I think they had a similar problem in Ireland but they changed the law to no longer allow Irish citizenship to children born in Ireland unless they meet the following criteria:

    # is automatically an Irish citizen if he or she is not entitled to the citizenship of any other country;
    # is entitled to be an Irish citizen if at least one of his or her parents is:

    * an Irish citizen (or someone entitled to be an Irish citizen);
    * a British citizen;
    * a resident of the island of Ireland who is entitled to reside in either the Republic or in Northern Ireland without any time limit on that residence; and/or
    * a legal resident of the island of Ireland for three out of the 4 years preceding the child's birth (although time spent as a student or as an asylum seeker does not count for this purpose)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_nationality_law

  • boule boule

    20 Jan 2010, 3:20PM

    Because it will encourage more illegal immigration if illegal immigrant parents can be sure that their children will have citizenship status even if they do not.

    On that principle, we should put thieving parents' children in jail because otherwise thieves will be encouraged.

  • hairything hairything

    20 Jan 2010, 3:21PM

    NapoleonKaramazov:

    "One must also keep in mind that Greece is one of the least ethnically diverse countries in Europe."

    Is that a crime[?]

    It is many past crimes, committed by people of many ethnicities. The "ethnic homogeneity" somewhat disingenuously noted in the article was the result of the slaughter of many thousands of innocent people, and their forced displacement from the lands that they called home. This was in the 1920's, and thousands were still to die.

  • sithepi sithepi

    20 Jan 2010, 3:22PM

    philipd

    "I must admit I'm a bit surprised to learn that second generation immigrants are not entitled to citizenship. I assumed it was the law in all EU countries that those born on its soil were entitled to citizenship, except for certain restricted categories."

    Actually you could not be more wrong, most EU countries specifically do not have such a law as it provided a loophole for gaining permanent residence (all you have to do is turn up 39wks pregnant, have your child, your child then has EU citizenship and can live anywhere in the EU, which in turn makes it very hard to remove the parents). Ireland had such a law until 2002 but it was abolished at the request of the UK government for exactly this reason.

    I appreciate the sentiment behind such a move, but one has to remain very aware of the potential consequences.

    And Hairything, close, it was actually 1st January 1983 that the UK version of that law was repealed.

  • Anglophobia Anglophobia

    20 Jan 2010, 3:24PM

    Don't those Greeks know that only immigrants are allowed to preserve their culture? Greeks' duty is to be anemic Eurocitizens speaking bad English and celebrating the diversity of newcomers and the spiritual value of cheap labour.

  • PhilipD PhilipD

    20 Jan 2010, 3:28PM

    Hairything:

    That's not the case in the UK. It was the case when I was born, but the then government changed the law in I think 1984, so people born in the UK are no longer automatically entitled to UK citizenship.

    Quite right, i've done a bit of checking. Just goes to show I shouldn't make assumptions....

  • MacCosham MacCosham

    20 Jan 2010, 3:28PM

    @hairything:

    But my main quibble with the bit I quoted was the "self-identified" part of it. Greek identity was something that many Turkish speaking Christians had thrust upon them.

    No, you have it rather wrong: non-Greek speaking Christians felt like Greeks and were treated as such by other Greeks. And also by Turks (read: very very harshly).

    Likewise, Greek-speaking Muslims in Crete and elsewhere received the full amount of hostility from their Christian co-linguists.

  • Optymystic Optymystic

    20 Jan 2010, 3:32PM

    @Herilane

    That's the situation they have in the States and it results in people traveling to the States while pregnant to have babies in the US so their children will be citizens of that country.

    I'm glad we don't have that kind of thing in England, whoops, oh, Queen Victoria.

  • yobro yobro

    20 Jan 2010, 3:32PM

    Hairything:
    You raise an interesting point about Turkish-speaking Christian refugees in the 20s. Yes, there were many of them, some never learnt Greek and most spoke it with an "Anatolian" accent until they died (most already have). Sadly, religion was the only criterion for ethnicity in those days, and led to some strange and tragic dislocations.

    The Mulsims of Crete were expelled to Turkey in 1912; they were culturaly and linguistically Greek, but after centuries of monopolising the best land, lording it over the rest and inviting the Turkish military to massacre rebellious Christians (every 10 years on average), they wouldn't have been safe when Crete reverted to Greece (shades of Bosnia and the Indian subcontinent: converting to the religion of the conqueror has advantages but it is never forgiven). I met some descendants of these Girit (Turkish for Cretans); they had a hard time adjusting to their new country.

    The Pontians (on the Black Sea coast of Turkey) were split right down the middle. Most were Christians, and were expelled in 1922; they make up a large proportion of today's Greek population. The Muslim part are still in Turkey, even though culturally they were indistinguishable; their archaic Greek dialect is under threat of extinction.

    In Anatolia (especially around Cappadocia) you would have found very strange mixtures; Turkish-speaking Christians writing Turkish-language grave inscriptions in the Greek alphabet, Greek-speaking Muslims writing in Arabic script, a heavily Turkish-influenced Cappadocian dielect spoken by both, etc. For all its pretense of secularism, the Kemalist regime disregarded everything other than religion in deciding who should stay, go or be given shelter. So did the Greek state (which at least claimed no secularist mantle).

    You can't expect refugees not to self-identify as Greek; how could they feel Turkish if they were brutally expelled by Turkey on the basis of their religion? So the claims of ethnic purity were correct then in the sense of self-identification and religion, not in terms of racial purity as some asinine posters have implied. Within one generation, Greek education and life in general saw to it that the self-identification became linguistic and cultural identity. Greek national culture has assimilated any number of constituent cultures: Arvanites, Vlachs, Anatolians, Pontians. The only element that so far has proved impossible to assimilate is Islam (for reasons of history and rivalry with Turkey). That is what makes the whole issue very tricky. In a perfect world it would not be, but it is what it is. I still think the Greek government should do the right thing about the children of immigrants, but i have no idea what the outcome will be.

  • hairything hairything

    20 Jan 2010, 3:34PM

    ResoluteRefusal:

    Here we go again; the Guardian deciding to lecture other countries on who they should let be citizens (everyone always being the answer).

    And there I went thinking that it was Greece's newly elected government that drafted the new law. How wrong I was, apparently it was the Guardian all along.

    This is an article from a Greek journalist about a debate that is happening in Greece. Strange as it may seem, some of the people commenting on it have a strong interest in Greece or - shock horror - are actually Greek! Stop shouting down the debate.

  • BurlingtonBertie BurlingtonBertie

    20 Jan 2010, 3:35PM

    A Turkish archaeologist has called on his government to demand that Italy return the bones of St Nicholas to their original resting place.

    'Jihadi archeologists demand we hand over Father Christmas to the Turkish Mullahs'. There's story in here someplace, especially if I can persuade PETA to get fluffy about the fate of the reindeer.

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