(cache) What does Mao need now to become OGM contender again?

Vash01 · 10-25-2009, 08:07 AM

After the disastrous results of Rostelecom, one has to wonder where Mao goes next. Will she continue with Tarasova or seek another coach? Will she change her music? Quit the 3A? There are many possibilities.

Pick two for this poll.

Mafke · 10-25-2009, 08:17 AM

1. Drop all the peripheral drama, she's fallen into the classic trap of wanting her olympics to be just perfect (like a bridezilla). Decide on a nice SP costume and LP costume and forget about them. Or just decide to decide at the last minute. But actively spending thought on issues like that take away from her competitive focus. The best way to think of olympics is just like any other competition, which is what it is - just another, if somewhat overhyped, competition.

2. Get a better SP strategy. Stop obsessing about the 3ax. The only worthwhile goal for the SP is to be in contention for the gold in the LP. There is no other strategy that works. Get your safest competitive combination and old reliable jumps, go back to flutzing if it makes the jump more secure, taking an e call is better than falling.

3. Go back in time and learn all the other triples _right_ before concentrating on the 3ax. (A little late for that, but I just thought I'd throw that in there). The biggest argument for the age rule imho is that the great majority of jr prodigies have iffy technique, they can land the jumps somehow because of the muscle to fat ratio (and save iffy jumps for the same reason). When they get a more mature body their technique lets them down.

judgejudy27 · 10-25-2009, 08:32 AM

I voted for:

-find another coach
-Use a 3-3 in SP instead of 3 axel
-skip the 3 axel, learn the 3 lutz instead

That said I am not sure if she has to totally skip trying the triple axel once or even twice in the LP depending on how things are going. I just think her priorities have to be shifted now. Solidifying her 3/3s so they get ratified and dont get downgraded, reviving her triple lutz, and working on all around consistency of the other triple, should all be priorities for her over the triple axel right now. If she gets those things solidified then sure she can try 1 or even 2 triple axels in the LP depending how things are going overall for her. Those other things have to come first though.

I think she should part with Tarasova. Tarasova is one of the greatest coaches of all time, and one of the most versatile, however as another poster said it is hard to say if she is a great jump coach or not. The singles champions she worked with like Kulik, Arakawa, Yagudin, had very solid jump technique already in place before they came to her. Tarasova's stint with Sasha didnt show any improvement in Sasha's jump technique that I saw, although Sasha's overall skating and the programs improved an enormous amount (as to really be expected with Tarasova, one of the great ice dance coaches in history as well). However what Mao needs right now is now what Tarasova seems to bringing. It just isnt working, and Mao needs to try someone else, as bold and risky a move as that is to make in an Olympic year she is sliding right out of contention for an Olympic medal altogether on the path she is on now.

Vash01 · 10-25-2009, 08:37 AM

I think Mao should include a 3A-2t in her LP and not go for two 3A's. In the SP she needs to go back to a 3-3 combination and not use the high risk 3A-2t combination.

I would like her to find another coach only because it has not worked out with TAT in terms of results in competitions. TAT is a great coach, but obviously not right for Mao at this time. Kulik had some difficulties in 1997 but he had enough time to iron out the problems before the 98 Olys. Mao does not have that luxury. IMO she should follow Shizuka's example- leave TAT and find the coach who will bring her back to where she was 2 years ago. I don't know who that coach should be, but I was thinking one of the Japanese coaches- Yamada or Sato.

judgejudy27 · 10-25-2009, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vash01

I think Mao should include a 3A-2t in her LP and not go for two 3A's. In the SP she needs to go back to a 3-3 combination and not use the high risk 3A-2t combination.

I would like her to find another coach only because it has not worked out with TAT in terms of results in competitions. TAT is a great coach, but obviously not right for Mao at this time. Kulik had some difficulties in 1997 but he had enough time to iron out the problems before the 98 Olys. Mao does not have that luxury. IMO she should follow Shizuka's example- leave TAT and find the coach who will bring her back to where she was 2 years ago. I don't know who that coach should be, but I was thinking one of the Japanese coaches- Yamada or Sato.

I agree with all you said. I think Yamada would be a good coach for her. She used to coach Mao as well, and she is an incredible jump coach, and her encouraging and calming personality would be good for Mao now. I was actually surprised she left Rafael though.

Okami · 10-25-2009, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judgejudy27

I agree with all you said. I think Yamada would be a good coach for her.

I don't quite agree with this. Machiko is a great coach for bringing one's potential out and has a great gift for noticing and bringing out the skaters' talent.

However, she's not a good jumping coach. All of her current skaters flutz, have a toe hammer (reaching with free leg nearly over head in toe jumps) and tendency to pre-rotate their jumps. Those with exceptional jumping talent are able to survive (Midori, thought she also flutzed, Mao, though her bad technique is giving her real trouble now, Kanako, though she really struggled through the growth spurt (underrotations and injury) and still Flutzes), but others drop like flies when they reach puberty (Mai, Sayaka Matsubara & others) - start to underrotate their jumps, fall, get injured.

Mao needs someone who could help her fix her jumps. I've been following Machiko's students progress since 2006-07, and while they are exceptional performers and strong competitors, their jumping technique is very poor.

If Mao were to switch coaches, I would like her to find a coach who has already proven that he/she can improve the skater's jumps.

bek · 10-25-2009, 07:40 PM

I think the main thing is Mao needs a jumping specialist.

Rex · 10-25-2009, 07:55 PM

How much taller has she gotten since 06?

ks777 · 10-25-2009, 08:00 PM

I voted that she won't win gold at 2010 Olympics no matter what because there isn't just enough time for her to fix her jumps.

If she has more time I would say she needs a new coach, a fasion critic and Lori Nichols.

kathy sullivan · 10-25-2009, 08:17 PM

I think she needs to re-discover her love and passion for skating, and her youthful confidence. Much in the way Michelle has grasped onto YuNa, I wish someone Mao admires would grasp onto her and fill her heart with confidence. She looks like a lost fawn looking for inspiration - and not the kind of domineering mother hen that eminates from TAT. TAT is too angry and domineering when she tries to "order" her skaters into confidence and at least for the females she coaches I think it is deadly - All I ever see in their faces is fear that they will fail, and defeat. I saw the look of destruction in the eyes of Sasha, Shizuka, and now Mao - while she coached them. She may be a great technical coach- I don't know. But from where I stand she fails miserably with the emotional support female skaters need - what I read in her face is her anger at their mistakes - anger that she looks bad and they have humiliated her. I don't think Mao is any less great a skater than she has been and I think she by all counts should be threatened only by YuNa. But YuNa has a Loving, Proud Papa, Daddy coach who will "love" her no matter what she does on the ice, and Michelle inspiring her. I think Mao needs someone who can inspire, believe in her no matter what, and help her believe in herself - how amazing, beautiful and talented she is out there on the ice.

CantALoop · 10-25-2009, 10:35 PM

In addition to all the reasons stated above, I think she should hire a mathematician or someone who can crunch the numbers and show them that they're literally skating stupid.

I'm glad she's scaling down the step sequences, but I hope that she'll reallocate the effort toward getting her spirals to Lv4 and giving her spins enough time so she won't lose levels on those either.

briancoogaert · 10-25-2009, 10:58 PM

Change the LP (or at least the costume

) and use a 3Flip/3Loop in the SP (or at least a 3Flip/2Loop and a solo 3Loop).
But this is very difficult for her since she has no perfect jump. Her technique is far from being perfect and she can have dongraded jumps even on her 2Loop (see TEB).
If the 3Axel is clean, she will have a lot of points, and if her 3Flip/2Loop combo is not ratified in the SP, she can finish very low in the rankings after the SP.

Ptolemy · 10-26-2009, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CantALoop

In addition to all the reasons stated above, I think she should hire a mathematician or someone who can crunch the numbers and show them that they're literally skating stupid.

I'm glad she's scaling down the step sequences, but I hope that she'll reallocate the effort toward getting her spirals to Lv4 and giving her spins enough time so she won't lose levels on those either.

I agree with you. Whether we like it or not, CoP is all about balancing risk and reward. Mao's team has the math screwed up.

olympic · 10-26-2009, 12:48 AM

1. screw the idea of competing with Yu-Na...for right now; focus on herself and her capabilities until she feels better,

2. ditch the 3a-2t combo in the SP. It's not working. Go back to the 3f-3r and practice a 3z as the solo triple. In my view, she was not far away from avoiding an edge call on the lutz. If the 3z is also not working. Do a 3sal. Why not? Rack up pts. on all the non-jump elements.

3. Do a 3a as the 2d jumping pass in the LP, after she warms up on the 1st pass. She can do it.

I actually don't detest 'Hell's Bells' believe it or not. I think it's doable, but Mao needs to reach into her purse and pull out a dark side of her personality to inspire and interpret this dark music. Maybe she can channel kicking TAT in the shins with her skates.....or something.

liffs58 · 10-26-2009, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olympic

I actually don't detest 'Hell's Bells' believe it or not. I think it's doable, but Mao needs to reach into her purse and pull out a dark side of her personality to inspire and interpret this dark music. Maybe she can channel kicking TAT in the shins with her skates.....or something.

santa1505 · 10-26-2009, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CantALoop

In addition to all the reasons stated above, I think she should hire a mathematician or someone who can crunch the numbers and show them that they're literally skating stupid.

I'm glad she's scaling down the step sequences, but I hope that she'll reallocate the effort toward getting her spirals to Lv4 and giving her spins enough time so she won't lose levels on those either.

Agreed. She rarely gets level 4 for her layback spin and spiral usually because she fails to hold it enough. If only she could get LV4 for all the elements (except for step ) she would rack up a few more valuable points. And GOE would be also doubled, so it IS a big deal.

I think she needs to chage coach, solidify 3-3(if it doesn't get secure Go for 3-2) and dump 3axel in SP, fix lutz, bring back 3sal. But on top of that, olympic is only 4 months away, so i would say she needs to get consistent with jumps she already has right now first.

bardtoob · 10-26-2009, 05:23 AM

Mao needs to train, show-up to competitions, compete especially at the Olympics, then receives scores. If she does those things them she will be an OGM contender.

Karpenko · 10-26-2009, 06:34 AM

A better long program and a better gameplan. Everything else is there, and as easy as it would be to give up on her right now I'm still not going to do it.

Shizuka also missed the GPF in 2006, changed both programs, and was even 3rd at Nats that year...

What mao really needs is a confidence boost. She's capable of such better performances but it seems like when she doesn't hit the things she's most focused on, everything else that she can usually do in her sleep slightly suffers too. The content of this program and the amount of pressure to perform it is why it's absolutely necessary for her to be skating to music that she can move naturally to. It will help to relax her, I think her new SP will pay off divedens if she hits it but they need to follow suit with the LP.

TinyTwinkleToes · 10-26-2009, 06:45 AM

I think she just needs to relax.

wonderlen · 10-26-2009, 04:53 PM

She needs to relax, and maybe have a cup of tea or smoke a joint before her SP and Lp. Ok. I'm joking about the later part.

Seriously:
1. Get a new coach and technical specialist to work full time basic.
2. Get a new program, or if the timing is an issue, just go back to LP from 06/07 or 07/08 season.
3. Ditch the 3A+2T in SP; replace with 3F+3T and solo 3Lo for SP.
4. FS: just do one 3A, 3F+3T, 3Lo, 2A+3T, 3F+2T+2Lo, 3S, 2A. Or replace the 3S with 3Lz after 1/2 way to bonus.

View Poll Results: What should Mao Asada do now to win the OGM in 2010?
Find another coach	65	34.95%
Keep Tarasova; change LP	19	10.22%
Use a 3f-3R in SP instead of a 3A-2t	74	39.78%
Hire a jump specialist	69	37.10%
Do nothing; the problems will fix themselves	4	2.15%
Skip the 3A; Learn the 3 lutz instead	37	19.89%
She cannot win in 2010, no matter what	42	22.58%
Other	16	8.60%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 186. You may not vote on this poll

10-25-2009, 08:07 AM	#1
Vash01 Join Date: Nov 2001 vCash: 495 Location: USA Posts: 8,585 Rep Power: 9700	What does Mao need now to become OGM contender again? After the disastrous results of Rostelecom, one has to wonder where Mao goes next. Will she continue with Tarasova or seek another coach? Will she change her music? Quit the 3A? There are many possibilities. Pick two for this poll.

10-25-2009, 10:58 PM	#12
briancoogaert "QueenOfPM"GuardianAngel Join Date: Nov 2003 vCash: 500 Location: in the arms of an angel Posts: 6,337 Rep Power: 4914	Change the LP (or at least the costume ) and use a 3Flip/3Loop in the SP (or at least a 3Flip/2Loop and a solo 3Loop). But this is very difficult for her since she has no perfect jump. Her technique is far from being perfect and she can have dongraded jumps even on her 2Loop (see TEB). If the 3Axel is clean, she will have a lot of points, and if her 3Flip/2Loop combo is not ratified in the SP, she can finish very low in the rankings after the SP. __________________ "If I agree well it's just to appease you 'cause I don't remember what were fighting for..." - Sarah McLachlan da best !

10-26-2009, 06:34 AM	#18
Karpenko Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 vCash: 600 Location: Cracked out on endorphins,with my dear friends Bobby and Whitney Age: 26 Posts: 7,217 Rep Power: 0	A better long program and a better gameplan. Everything else is there, and as easy as it would be to give up on her right now I'm still not going to do it. Shizuka also missed the GPF in 2006, changed both programs, and was even 3rd at Nats that year... What mao really needs is a confidence boost. She's capable of such better performances but it seems like when she doesn't hit the things she's most focused on, everything else that she can usually do in her sleep slightly suffers too. The content of this program and the amount of pressure to perform it is why it's absolutely necessary for her to be skating to music that she can move naturally to. It will help to relax her, I think her new SP will pay off divedens if she hits it but they need to follow suit with the LP. Last edited by Karpenko; 10-26-2009 at 06:39 AM..

10-25-2009, 08:17 AM	#2
Mafke Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 vCash: 500 Posts: 685 Rep Power: 0	1. Drop all the peripheral drama, she's fallen into the classic trap of wanting her olympics to be just perfect (like a bridezilla). Decide on a nice SP costume and LP costume and forget about them. Or just decide to decide at the last minute. But actively spending thought on issues like that take away from her competitive focus. The best way to think of olympics is just like any other competition, which is what it is - just another, if somewhat overhyped, competition. 2. Get a better SP strategy. Stop obsessing about the 3ax. The only worthwhile goal for the SP is to be in contention for the gold in the LP. There is no other strategy that works. Get your safest competitive combination and old reliable jumps, go back to flutzing if it makes the jump more secure, taking an e call is better than falling. 3. Go back in time and learn all the other triples _right_ before concentrating on the 3ax. (A little late for that, but I just thought I'd throw that in there). The biggest argument for the age rule imho is that the great majority of jr prodigies have iffy technique, they can land the jumps somehow because of the muscle to fat ratio (and save iffy jumps for the same reason). When they get a more mature body their technique lets them down.

10-25-2009, 08:32 AM	#3
judgejudy27 Join Date: Apr 2006 vCash: 180 Age: 18 Posts: 5,189 Rep Power: 4068	I voted for: -find another coach -Use a 3-3 in SP instead of 3 axel -skip the 3 axel, learn the 3 lutz instead That said I am not sure if she has to totally skip trying the triple axel once or even twice in the LP depending on how things are going. I just think her priorities have to be shifted now. Solidifying her 3/3s so they get ratified and dont get downgraded, reviving her triple lutz, and working on all around consistency of the other triple, should all be priorities for her over the triple axel right now. If she gets those things solidified then sure she can try 1 or even 2 triple axels in the LP depending how things are going overall for her. Those other things have to come first though. I think she should part with Tarasova. Tarasova is one of the greatest coaches of all time, and one of the most versatile, however as another poster said it is hard to say if she is a great jump coach or not. The singles champions she worked with like Kulik, Arakawa, Yagudin, had very solid jump technique already in place before they came to her. Tarasova's stint with Sasha didnt show any improvement in Sasha's jump technique that I saw, although Sasha's overall skating and the programs improved an enormous amount (as to really be expected with Tarasova, one of the great ice dance coaches in history as well). However what Mao needs right now is now what Tarasova seems to bringing. It just isnt working, and Mao needs to try someone else, as bold and risky a move as that is to make in an Olympic year she is sliding right out of contention for an Olympic medal altogether on the path she is on now.

10-25-2009, 08:37 AM	#4
Vash01 Join Date: Nov 2001 vCash: 495 Location: USA Posts: 8,585 Rep Power: 9700	I think Mao should include a 3A-2t in her LP and not go for two 3A's. In the SP she needs to go back to a 3-3 combination and not use the high risk 3A-2t combination. I would like her to find another coach only because it has not worked out with TAT in terms of results in competitions. TAT is a great coach, but obviously not right for Mao at this time. Kulik had some difficulties in 1997 but he had enough time to iron out the problems before the 98 Olys. Mao does not have that luxury. IMO she should follow Shizuka's example- leave TAT and find the coach who will bring her back to where she was 2 years ago. I don't know who that coach should be, but I was thinking one of the Japanese coaches- Yamada or Sato.

10-25-2009, 07:40 PM	#7
bek Join Date: Nov 2005 vCash: 6646 Posts: 9,384 Rep Power: 6797	I think the main thing is Mao needs a jumping specialist.

10-25-2009, 07:55 PM	#8
Rex Bratty Join Date: Oct 2004 vCash: 575 Location: ROPAT Posts: 17,552 Rep Power: 32373	How much taller has she gotten since 06?

10-25-2009, 08:00 PM	#9
ks777 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 vCash: 500 Location: US Posts: 756 Rep Power: 0	I voted that she won't win gold at 2010 Olympics no matter what because there isn't just enough time for her to fix her jumps. If she has more time I would say she needs a new coach, a fasion critic and Lori Nichols.

10-25-2009, 08:17 PM	#10
kathy sullivan Join Date: Jan 2003 vCash: 500 Posts: 393 Rep Power: 9538	I think she needs to re-discover her love and passion for skating, and her youthful confidence. Much in the way Michelle has grasped onto YuNa, I wish someone Mao admires would grasp onto her and fill her heart with confidence. She looks like a lost fawn looking for inspiration - and not the kind of domineering mother hen that eminates from TAT. TAT is too angry and domineering when she tries to "order" her skaters into confidence and at least for the females she coaches I think it is deadly - All I ever see in their faces is fear that they will fail, and defeat. I saw the look of destruction in the eyes of Sasha, Shizuka, and now Mao - while she coached them. She may be a great technical coach- I don't know. But from where I stand she fails miserably with the emotional support female skaters need - what I read in her face is her anger at their mistakes - anger that she looks bad and they have humiliated her. I don't think Mao is any less great a skater than she has been and I think she by all counts should be threatened only by YuNa. But YuNa has a Loving, Proud Papa, Daddy coach who will "love" her no matter what she does on the ice, and Michelle inspiring her. I think Mao needs someone who can inspire, believe in her no matter what, and help her believe in herself - how amazing, beautiful and talented she is out there on the ice.

10-25-2009, 10:35 PM	#11
CantALoop Join Date: Oct 2004 vCash: 900 Location: posting notes on the door of the Yunatarian church Posts: 1,643 Rep Power: 0	In addition to all the reasons stated above, I think she should hire a mathematician or someone who can crunch the numbers and show them that they're literally skating stupid. I'm glad she's scaling down the step sequences, but I hope that she'll reallocate the effort toward getting her spirals to Lv4 and giving her spins enough time so she won't lose levels on those either.

10-26-2009, 12:48 AM	#14
olympic Join Date: Dec 2004 vCash: 500 Posts: 2,066 Rep Power: 0	1. screw the idea of competing with Yu-Na...for right now; focus on herself and her capabilities until she feels better, 2. ditch the 3a-2t combo in the SP. It's not working. Go back to the 3f-3r and practice a 3z as the solo triple. In my view, she was not far away from avoiding an edge call on the lutz. If the 3z is also not working. Do a 3sal. Why not? Rack up pts. on all the non-jump elements. 3. Do a 3a as the 2d jumping pass in the LP, after she warms up on the 1st pass. She can do it. I actually don't detest 'Hell's Bells' believe it or not. I think it's doable, but Mao needs to reach into her purse and pull out a dark side of her personality to inspire and interpret this dark music. Maybe she can channel kicking TAT in the shins with her skates.....or something.

10-26-2009, 05:23 AM	#17
bardtoob Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 vCash: 500 Location: I'm the Oscar the Grouch of FSU. I live in the Trash Can. Posts: 4,809 Rep Power: 0	Mao needs to train, show-up to competitions, compete especially at the Olympics, then receives scores. If she does those things them she will be an OGM contender.

10-26-2009, 06:45 AM	#19
TinyTwinkleToes Join Date: Jul 2005 vCash: 340 Posts: 2,876 Rep Power: 3733	I think she just needs to relax.

10-26-2009, 04:53 PM	#20
wonderlen Registered User Join Date: Sep 2007 vCash: 500 Posts: 330 Rep Power: 0	She needs to relax, and maybe have a cup of tea or smoke a joint before her SP and Lp. Ok. I'm joking about the later part. Seriously: 1. Get a new coach and technical specialist to work full time basic. 2. Get a new program, or if the timing is an issue, just go back to LP from 06/07 or 07/08 season. 3. Ditch the 3A+2T in SP; replace with 3F+3T and solo 3Lo for SP. 4. FS: just do one 3A, 3F+3T, 3Lo, 2A+3T, 3F+2T+2Lo, 3S, 2A. Or replace the 3S with 3Lz after 1/2 way to bonus.