(cache) Which scoring system do you prefer?

jaws12345 · 10-29-2009, 05:02 AM

CoP? 6.0? Neither? or Indifferent?

Nomad · 10-29-2009, 05:05 AM

I lean towards CoP. It's not ideal, judges can still cheat with it, but at least a rough SP doesn't automatically knock a skater off the podium like it often did under 6.0.

lakewood · 10-29-2009, 06:05 AM

CoP needs improvement, but still better than old 6.0.

GrumpySatanas · 10-29-2009, 07:09 AM

I think CoP makes cheating less obvious but can't put an end to it, even with some improvement, so I really don't get the sense it's a fairer system.

Also, the SP has become virtually useless, hasn't it?

One good side with CoP is that I now don't even bother watching the skaters' performances, I just read the protocols, thinking that I would anyway often disagree with the PCS..

Well, after viewing so many wobbly and unattractive change of edge spirals, and awkward spins with a zillion changes of position, 6.0 for me. Even though CoP forces the skaters to work on more complicated elements, which is a good thing, I wish it wouldn't push them to necessarily incorporate those in their programs, especially when they obviously haven't been mastered. It's good to reward the skaters' effort though, but is it a good thing to reward them when they perform unmastered (and utterly unattractive) elements that still meet the requirements to get a high level? (But then, if they weren't rewarded, I guess the skaters wouldn't bother working on stuff they don't feel comfortable with..). So, since neither system is perfect, I still prefer 6.0.

jaws12345 · 10-29-2009, 07:53 AM

With CoP, at least we won't see this nonsense happening anymore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFt3bDPar60

RunnersHigh · 10-29-2009, 08:45 AM

COP.

Although it's not perfect and fair.
And I'm sure there will not be a perfect Judging system for figure skating.

IMHO, TES with COP and PCS with 6.0. Draw is allowed.

icedance21 · 10-29-2009, 09:03 AM

COP as the marking/judging scores are far clearer to people who watch the sport (in terms of exact scores, etc.)

Artifice · 10-29-2009, 10:29 AM

COP. Now skaters know what they are scored for, why they win, why they lose, what elements they have to improve, and it's not all about jumps anymore (not that this is not important, it's quite the contrary to me), other aspects of skating are rewarded.

natalia65 · 10-29-2009, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artifice

COP. Now skaters know what they are scored for, why they win, why they lose, what elements they have to improve, and it's not all about jumps anymore (not that this is not important, it's quite the contrary to me)

These are exactly my thoughts. Obviously CoP need some improvements but no more 6-s ever.

museksk8r · 10-29-2009, 01:37 PM

Both systems have their problems. IMO, the technical elements score and the presentation score under 6.0 were both often shady. At least now, IMO, it is only the PCS score that is shady under COP. It helps so much having a protocol sheet to break down what happened and to see how the judges come up with the TES score in COP. I'm convinced there will never be a perfect judging system in figure skating because so much of this sport is subjective in both the technical scoring where GOE is concerned (6.0 was the same way: Exhibit 1 - Sarah Hughes's 2002 Olympic SP with technical scores and ordinals all over the place from 4th to 10th) and the presentation scoring.

lakewood · 10-29-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by museksk8r

Both systems have their problems. IMO, the technical elements score and the presentation score under 6.0 were both often shady. At least now, IMO, it is only the PCS score that is shady under COP. It helps so much having a protocol sheet to break down what happened and to see how the judges come up with the TES score in COP. I'm convinced there will never be a perfect judging system in figure skating because so much of this sport is subjective in both the technical scoring where GOE is concerned (6.0 was the same way: Exhibit 1 - Sarah Hughes's 2002 Olympic SP with technical scores and ordinals all over the place from 4th to 10th) and the presentation scoring.

ITA. Your post explains why strict judging on UR is necessary in CoP. Without it, even TES would be governed by GOE that is subjective.

bbinkyy · 10-29-2009, 02:15 PM

cop has made skating boring and even stupid; and sucked the emotion out of a performance, replacing it with eccentric arm waving and ridiculous edge changes

walei · 10-29-2009, 02:51 PM

I'm one of the of fewer ones that prefer 6.0 system. I felt that even under COP judges can still have protocol judging with the PCS score. Also, I don't like the fact that under COP, skaters can sometimes be so far ahead after one phase of the competition that the free skate is pretty much a yawn fest. Yes under 6.0 if you mess up you can be out of the medals hunt but at least the top skaters still can make a comeback.

And of course, the marks read out under 6.0 is waaaay more exciting than COP. SIX! (audience go nuts)

~tapdancer~ · 10-29-2009, 03:23 PM

I much prefer CoP. Although it is frustrating that it goes to hundreths of point...for a skater to miss a medal by that amount has to be tough..but still I much prefer knowing levels and GOEs a skater gets as opposed to being ranked by ordinals. CoP is so much clearer and objective even if the PCS still has that subjectivity about it. Of course there is always going to be that because of the artistry and aesthetics of figure skating.

neptune · 10-29-2009, 06:05 PM

There should have been a fourth poll option:

There's a difference?

briancoogaert · 10-29-2009, 06:14 PM

Very, very difficult. Because I was born under the 6.0 system, and for me, it was the rule, so, it was normal. I've seen the birth of CoP, so for me, it's not ideal.
What I mean is that I'm more critic about CoP because I've known the sport differently. But none of those systems is perfect.
Figure skating was interesting pre-CoP and is still interesting under CoP. That's the most important thing for me.

Taso · 10-29-2009, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neptune

There should have been a fourth poll option:

There's a difference?

In terms of judging, no. That can be crooked up a million different ways now to get the results to whever the powers that be want them. Before it was just a little more arbitrary

I HATE the incoherent program constructions under CoP, just HATE them. I don't even bother to watch the competitions anymore, I just look at the score sheets and follow the math. I really wonder why I bother at all, I've not even seen many top skaters programs the past few years, nevermind the rest. The incoherent mishmash of poorly performed cookie cuter shapes does nothing for me, and that makes me sad because I really loved skating

I kinda have an OCD thing with numbers so CoP sucks me in with that, but I'm not watching the skating and that's what the numbers are supposed to be scoring, so what's really the point?

emma. · 10-29-2009, 08:13 PM

CoP, it's not perfect but in terms of helping watchers/skaters understand what they're being scored and why it's definitely better than the 6.0 system.

Aussie Willy · 10-30-2009, 02:16 AM

I think people need to differentiate between how CoP works as a judging system and then what it requires skaters to do.

As a judging system it is so much better than 6.0. Judges find it much easier to evaluate each element on it's merits instead of giving one value for all the elements (which isn't even accurate because 6.0 is a placement system). Also for judging, I have found it more valuable for the feedback I get on my own performance and what things I need to look out for in future. And for the skaters they get feedback on their performances and know where they went wrong, what they need to improve on, or also find out what they did really well.

As for what it requires skaters to do, that is a different matter. It does require skaters to do more and there are things that need improving. But it doesn't just focus on jumping ability which is what 6.0 seemed to do and skaters get rewarded for the other aspects of their programmes such as spins and footwork.

And from all perspectives the fans can see what the judges did with a more detailed protocol than ever before. And they get to see it. Under 6.0 nothing was transparent. There is much greater transparency with IJS.

And as a result fans have more to get up in arms about but also make forums like this more dynamic. But in the end fans get to learn more overall, whether they agree or disagree with the way judges have marked. Would we have even cared about what a transition was under 6.0?

So I don't think you can claim that it is a failure because you need to look at what purposes it serves individually rather than a collective. Then you can correct those aspects that are a problem.

santa1505 · 10-30-2009, 02:31 AM

COP. No doubt. I think people sometimes forgets why we moved from old 6.0 to COP in the first place.

COP is not perfect. But it's a lot fairer than 6.0.

View Poll Results: Which scoring system do you prefer?
CoP	132	64.39%
6.0	59	28.78%
Neither, or indifferent	14	6.83%
Voters: 205. You may not vote on this poll

10-29-2009, 05:02 AM	#1
jaws12345 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 vCash: 500 Posts: 157 Rep Power: 0	Which scoring system do you prefer? CoP? 6.0? Neither? or Indifferent?

10-29-2009, 07:09 AM	#4
GrumpySatanas Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009 vCash: 500 Location: Down Under Posts: 66 Rep Power: 0	I think CoP makes cheating less obvious but can't put an end to it, even with some improvement, so I really don't get the sense it's a fairer system. Also, the SP has become virtually useless, hasn't it? One good side with CoP is that I now don't even bother watching the skaters' performances, I just read the protocols, thinking that I would anyway often disagree with the PCS.. Well, after viewing so many wobbly and unattractive change of edge spirals, and awkward spins with a zillion changes of position, 6.0 for me. Even though CoP forces the skaters to work on more complicated elements, which is a good thing, I wish it wouldn't push them to necessarily incorporate those in their programs, especially when they obviously haven't been mastered. It's good to reward the skaters' effort though, but is it a good thing to reward them when they perform unmastered (and utterly unattractive) elements that still meet the requirements to get a high level? (But then, if they weren't rewarded, I guess the skaters wouldn't bother working on stuff they don't feel comfortable with..). So, since neither system is perfect, I still prefer 6.0. Last edited by GrumpySatanas; 10-29-2009 at 07:15 AM..

10-30-2009, 02:16 AM	#19
Aussie Willy Join Date: Feb 2005 vCash: 552 Location: Melbourne, Australia Age: 43 Posts: 11,262 Rep Power: 6047	I think people need to differentiate between how CoP works as a judging system and then what it requires skaters to do. As a judging system it is so much better than 6.0. Judges find it much easier to evaluate each element on it's merits instead of giving one value for all the elements (which isn't even accurate because 6.0 is a placement system). Also for judging, I have found it more valuable for the feedback I get on my own performance and what things I need to look out for in future. And for the skaters they get feedback on their performances and know where they went wrong, what they need to improve on, or also find out what they did really well. As for what it requires skaters to do, that is a different matter. It does require skaters to do more and there are things that need improving. But it doesn't just focus on jumping ability which is what 6.0 seemed to do and skaters get rewarded for the other aspects of their programmes such as spins and footwork. And from all perspectives the fans can see what the judges did with a more detailed protocol than ever before. And they get to see it. Under 6.0 nothing was transparent. There is much greater transparency with IJS. And as a result fans have more to get up in arms about but also make forums like this more dynamic. But in the end fans get to learn more overall, whether they agree or disagree with the way judges have marked. Would we have even cared about what a transition was under 6.0? So I don't think you can claim that it is a failure because you need to look at what purposes it serves individually rather than a collective. Then you can correct those aspects that are a problem. __________________ I am now proudly one of Sarah Palin's love children named Stinger Assassin Palin.

10-29-2009, 05:05 AM	#2
Nomad Registered User Join Date: Jan 2009 vCash: 500 Location: Between the Sinagoga and the Duomo Posts: 1,689 Rep Power: 0	I lean towards CoP. It's not ideal, judges can still cheat with it, but at least a rough SP doesn't automatically knock a skater off the podium like it often did under 6.0.

10-29-2009, 06:05 AM	#3
lakewood Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 vCash: 500 Posts: 265 Rep Power: 0	CoP needs improvement, but still better than old 6.0.

10-29-2009, 07:53 AM	#5
jaws12345 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 vCash: 500 Posts: 157 Rep Power: 0	With CoP, at least we won't see this nonsense happening anymore. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFt3bDPar60

10-29-2009, 08:45 AM	#6
RunnersHigh Knew nothing about FS Join Date: Jun 2009 vCash: 500 Location: 1 mile from Ice Rink Posts: 385 Rep Power: 1771	COP. Although it's not perfect and fair. And I'm sure there will not be a perfect Judging system for figure skating. IMHO, TES with COP and PCS with 6.0. Draw is allowed.

10-29-2009, 09:03 AM	#7
icedance21 Auntie icedance Join Date: Aug 2007 vCash: 1878 Posts: 8,392 Rep Power: 0	COP as the marking/judging scores are far clearer to people who watch the sport (in terms of exact scores, etc.)

10-29-2009, 10:29 AM	#8
Artifice Registered User Join Date: Dec 2005 vCash: 495 Posts: 788 Rep Power: 0	COP. Now skaters know what they are scored for, why they win, why they lose, what elements they have to improve, and it's not all about jumps anymore (not that this is not important, it's quite the contrary to me), other aspects of skating are rewarded.

10-29-2009, 01:37 PM	#10
museksk8r Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 vCash: 500 Location: politicking for Lambiel, Abbott, Kozuka, Rochette, Kostner, M/T, S/Z, K/S, D/W, V/M, & P/B Posts: 892 Rep Power: 0	Both systems have their problems. IMO, the technical elements score and the presentation score under 6.0 were both often shady. At least now, IMO, it is only the PCS score that is shady under COP. It helps so much having a protocol sheet to break down what happened and to see how the judges come up with the TES score in COP. I'm convinced there will never be a perfect judging system in figure skating because so much of this sport is subjective in both the technical scoring where GOE is concerned (6.0 was the same way: Exhibit 1 - Sarah Hughes's 2002 Olympic SP with technical scores and ordinals all over the place from 4th to 10th) and the presentation scoring.

10-29-2009, 02:15 PM	#12
bbinkyy Join Date: Aug 2002 vCash: 500 Posts: 135 Rep Power: 0	cop has made skating boring and even stupid; and sucked the emotion out of a performance, replacing it with eccentric arm waving and ridiculous edge changes

10-29-2009, 02:51 PM	#13
walei Join Date: Oct 2004 vCash: 500 Posts: 125 Rep Power: 0	I'm one of the of fewer ones that prefer 6.0 system. I felt that even under COP judges can still have protocol judging with the PCS score. Also, I don't like the fact that under COP, skaters can sometimes be so far ahead after one phase of the competition that the free skate is pretty much a yawn fest. Yes under 6.0 if you mess up you can be out of the medals hunt but at least the top skaters still can make a comeback. And of course, the marks read out under 6.0 is waaaay more exciting than COP. SIX! (audience go nuts)

10-29-2009, 03:23 PM	#14
~tapdancer~ D/W fan Join Date: Jan 2006 vCash: 500 Location: Usually in the D/W thread Posts: 2,584 Rep Power: 0	I much prefer CoP. Although it is frustrating that it goes to hundreths of point...for a skater to miss a medal by that amount has to be tough..but still I much prefer knowing levels and GOEs a skater gets as opposed to being ranked by ordinals. CoP is so much clearer and objective even if the PCS still has that subjectivity about it. Of course there is always going to be that because of the artistry and aesthetics of figure skating.

10-29-2009, 06:05 PM	#15
neptune Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 vCash: 500 Location: There's one near you!!! :) Posts: 2,356 Rep Power: 0	There should have been a fourth poll option: There's a difference?

10-29-2009, 06:14 PM	#16
briancoogaert "QueenOfPM"GuardianAngel Join Date: Nov 2003 vCash: 500 Location: in the arms of an angel Posts: 6,103 Rep Power: 0	Very, very difficult. Because I was born under the 6.0 system, and for me, it was the rule, so, it was normal. I've seen the birth of CoP, so for me, it's not ideal. What I mean is that I'm more critic about CoP because I've known the sport differently. But none of those systems is perfect. Figure skating was interesting pre-CoP and is still interesting under CoP. That's the most important thing for me.

10-29-2009, 08:13 PM	#18
emma. Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 vCash: 500 Location: England Age: 21 Posts: 151 Rep Power: 0	CoP, it's not perfect but in terms of helping watchers/skaters understand what they're being scored and why it's definitely better than the 6.0 system.

10-30-2009, 02:31 AM	#20
santa1505 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 vCash: 500 Posts: 126 Rep Power: 0	COP. No doubt. I think people sometimes forgets why we moved from old 6.0 to COP in the first place. COP is not perfect. But it's a lot fairer than 6.0.