Below is a video that claims that Dokdo (Liancourt Rocks) was historically Korean territory. I had intended to go through the video and point out all of the lies, half-truths, and red-herring arguments that are in it, but there are so many that I got tired of counting. Instead of wasting my time doing that, I will just say this: There are no Korean maps or documents before 1905 that refers to any island in the Sea of Japan as “Dokdo,” including the 1900 Korean Imperial Proclamation mentioned by the American law professor. Therefore, everytime the video claims that a Korean map or document says “Dokdo,” you will know that it is a lie.
Old Korean maps and documents referred to two islands in the Sea of Japan (East Sea). The islands were Ulleungdo (Muleungdo) and Usando. Koreans claim that Usando was Dokdo (Liancourt Rocks), so when they see Usando mentioned in a Korean document or on a Korean map, they often just call it Dokdo instead of using the name on the map or in the document. However, that is not only confusing, it is a big mistake because Korea’s historical maps and documents suggest that Usando was actually Jukdo, which is a small island less than four kilometers off the east coast of Ulleungdo. This means that when the video talks about Japanese documents saying this or that about “Dokdo,” the documents are most likely referring to Ulleungdo’s neighboring island, Jukdo, not to present-day Dokdo.
Old Korean maps show Usando next to Ulleungdo, not ninety-three kilometers to the southeast, which is where present-day Dokdo is. Old Korean documents say that Usando was fertile and had trees and other plant life, but present-day Dokdo is just barren rocks with no trees and little or no plant life. Even though Koreans have recently been bringing soil to the rocks to try to grow some small plants there, the plants there are still insignificant, and there are certainly no trees. Old Korean documents also talk about people living on Usando, which means that it could not have been Dokdo since Dokdo does not have the water or soil to support people.
Below the video link, I will give links to old Korean maps and quote old Korean documents that prove that Usando could not have been present-day Dokdo, but first watch the video and see how many lies and half-truths you can find.
Samguksagi (1145 A.D.)
In the summer month of June in the 13th year (512 A.D.), Usan-guk (于山國) surrendered and began paying tributes in local products. Usan-guk is a island in the sea due east of Myeongju, and is also called Ulleungdo. The area of the land measures 100 ri.
Notice that the quote says that Usan-guk (Country of Usan) was another name for Ulleungdo. The area given for the island also corresponds with the area of Ullengdo. By the way, Usan-guk literally means “big mountain country,” and Ulleungdo literally means “luxuriant big-hill island.” Is that just a coincidence?Samgukyusa (approximately 1277 A.D.)
U-leung-do (于陵島), now called U-leung (羽陵) is in the middle of the sea, two days due east of Haseulla-ju (now Myeongju) if the wind is favorable. It has a circumference of 26,730 paces.
In the above quote, Ulleungdo is referred to as U-leungdo. In this record, the “U” in U-leungdo is the same Chinese character used for the “U” in Usando. Again, that suggests that Usando and Ulleungdo were originally just two names for the same island.
April 15, 1412 (Annals of King Taejong)
In accordance with Uijongbu orders, methods for dealing with the people of Yusanguk-do were discussed. The governor of Kangwon Province reported that twelve people from Yusanguk-do, including Baek Ga-mul, came and anchored at Eorajin in Koseong and said the following:
“We grew up on Mu-leungdo, where eleven families lived with a total of more than sixty men and women. Now we have moved to the main island and are living there. The island’s distances from east to west and north to south are each two shik (60 ri), and its circumference is eight shik (240 ri). There are no cows or horses or rice paddies on the island, but if we plant just one mal of beans, we harvest twenty to thirty seok. If we plant one seok of barley, we harvest more than fifty seok. The bamboo are as big as rafters, and there are all kinds of sea products and fruit trees.”
Notice that the governor said the twelve people came from an island called “Usanguk-do,” which means the “Island of Usanguk.” What is interesting about the above record is that the people said they grew up on an island called “Muleungdo,” but later moved to the “main island,” which we can assume was “Usanguk-do.” That would mean that Muleungdo was a neighboring island of Usanguk-do and that it had the resources to support 11 families with a total of sixty men and women, which means that the neighboring island could not have been Dokdo since Dokdo is just barren rocks unable to support even a few people.
From the description given by the people of Usanguk-do, we know that the “main island” they were describing was Ulleungdo. That would mean that the neighboring island (Muleungdo), which they said they grew up on, was most likely Jukdo, which is the largest neighboring island of Ulleungdo. See the following map of present-day Ulleungdo:
According to the above 1412 quote, the residents of Ulleungdo were calling the main island “Usanguk-do” and its neighboring island “Muleungdo.” If Usanguk-do was referring to Ulleungdo, then that would mean that Muleungdo would have been off the east coast since the only neighboring islands of Ulleungdo are off its east coast. That would explain why early Korean maps of Ulleungdo show Usando to the west of Ulleungdo (Muleungdo). See the cutout of the 1530 Korean map that was shown in the video:
Notice in the above map that Usando (于山島) was drawn to the west of Ulleungdo (鬱陵島), which fits the description given by the residents of Usanguk-do in the above 1412 record.
By the way, the above Dokdo video claimed that the above map was the first Korean map to show “Dokdo.” The video forgot to mention, however, that the island they were claiming to be Dokdo was not called “Dokdo” and was west of Ulleungdo, which means it could not have been Dokdo since Dokdo it 92 kilometers southeast of Ulleungdo.
The names of the two islands did not switch until sometime in the 1700s.
September 2, 1416 (Annals of King Taejong)
Kim In-n was made Inspector of the Ulleungdo area.
Official (호조참íŒ) Bak Seup said, “When I was governor of Gangwon Province, I heard that Muleungdo had a circumference of seven sik and had a small island next to it. It had fifty kyeol of farmland and a narrow entryway that only allowed people to travel single file; they could not walk two abreast. A long time ago a man named Bak Ji-yong lead fifteen families to the island and lived there. I also heard that they would sometimes conspire with Japanese pirates and steal. There is a man in Samcheok who knows that island. Please ask him to go there and check.”
The king considered that good advice and called Samcheok resident and former military commander Kim In-u and asked him about Muleungdo.
Kim In-u said, “Samcheok resident Lee Man has been to Muleungdo and knows the details of the island.” Lee Man was immediately sent for. Kim In-u added, “Muleungdo is far away in the middle of the sea, so there is not much contact with people there, which is probably why people flee to the island to escape military service. If there are many people living on the island, Japanese pirates will end up raiding it, and then use it to raid Gangwon Province.
The king agreed and made Kim In-u Inspector of the Muleungdo area. He also made Lee Man his assistant and give them two troop ships, two ship’s captains, two 引海 (ì¸í•´), guns, gunpowder, and provisions. He told them to go to Muleungdo, talk to the leader there, and have them return. The king gave Kim In-u and Lee Man clothes, hats, and shoes.
In the above record, the former governor of Gangwon Province referred to Muleungdo as the main island, but he said that is also had a small neighboring island. I am pretty sure the former governor was governor of Gangwon Province before 1412, which means he was governor before the residents of Yusanguk-do (Usando) reported that Ullengdo’s main island was “Yusanguk-do” and its smaller neighboring island was “Muleungdo.”
When the king ordered Kim In-u to go inspect the island, he gave Kim the title of “Muleungdo Area Inspector” instead of just “Muleungdo Inspector.” This suggests that the king considered the news of neighboring islands when he created the title for Kim.
February 5, 1417 (Annals of King Taejong)
Inspector Kim In-u returned from Usando and brought local products as tribute, including large bamboo, seal skins, raw ramie cloth, silk wool, and geombak wood (trees). He also brought back three residents of the place. There were fifteen families living on the island for a total of 86 men and women. On his way back from the island, Kim In-u ran into two typhoons and barely made it back alive.
In September 1416, Kim In-u was given the title of “Muleungdo Area Inspector” and sent to Muleungdo to inspect the island. However, notice that the above record says that Kim returned from “Usando,” not Muleungdo. He also brought tribute that included large bamboo and tree products. That suggests that when Kim got to Muleungdo, the people there told him that their island was “Usando,” not Muleungdo. It does not say what the small, neighboring island was being called,” but one thing is clear. Kim got bamboo and wood products from Usando, which means that Usando was not Dokdo since Dokdo is just a couple of rocky islets with no such plants.
It appears that people on the mainland were referring to Ulleungdo as “Muleungdo” while the people who actually lived on the island was calling it “Usando.” Even with this information, people on the mainland still often referred to the area as “Muleungdo,” probably out of habit.
February 8, 1417 (Annals of King Taejong)
Minister Han Sang-gyeong told the six government authorities and the Daegan to discuss the best ways to evict the Usan-Muleung residents. They all said the following:
“Let’s not evict the Muleung residents. Wouldn’t it be better to give them grain and farming implements so that they will have a stable occupation? Then we can send a military commander to keep them pacified and determine the tribute.”
However, Kongjo Minister Hwang Hui, who was the sole dissenter, said, “Do not banish them, but quickly evict them.”
Then the king said,
“Evicting them is the right strategy. Those people have avoided their national duty and have been living comfortably. If we decide on a tribute and install a commander, they will definitely not like it, so we cannot allow them to stay there for long. The appropriate thing to do is to keep Kim In-u as the area inspector, and send him back to the Usan-Muleung area to bring its residents to the mainland.”
Then, the king gave clothes, hats, and shoes [to Kim In-u]. He also gave a set of clothes to each of the three people from Usan. After that, he ordered the Gangwon provincial governor to supply two military ships and to choose a capable naval commander from his province to accompany Kim In-u.
In the above record, Korean ministers were discussing Kim In-u’s recent trip to Ulleungdo. Notice that the ministers referred to the residents of the island as the “Usan-Muleung residents,” which suggests that not only were Usan and Muleung neighboring islands, but that they both had people living on them. Notice also that the name “Usan” comes before “Muleung,” which suggests that it was the larger island. Finally, notice that Kim brought back three people from “Usan,” which means that Usando was inhabited. Again, Usando was not present-day Dokdo.
August 6, 1417 (Annals of King Taejong)
Japanese pirates loot Usan and Muleung islands.
Again, the above record suggests that Usando and Muleungdo were neighboring islands. If either of the two islands had been present-day Dokdo, then how would one island know that the other was looted, given that Dokdo it 92 kilometers southeast of Ulleungdo? Besides, what would there have been to loot on Dokdo?
August 8, 1425 (Annals of King Sejong)
Kim In-u, a former panjanggihyeonsa, was made inspector for the Usan/Muleung area. In 1416, the government sent In-u to Muleungdo to bring back former Pyonghae residents Kim Ul-ji, Lee Man, Kim Ul-geum, and others who had run away to live on Muleungdo. In 1423, twenty-three men and women, including Ul-ji, ran away back to the island. In May this year, seven people, including Ul-ji, left their wives and children on the island and came secretly in a small boat to Kumi-po in Pyeonghae County, where they were discovered. The governor arrested them, and sent an urgent message from his village to bring back immediately the people still on the island. With fifty men, military equipment, and 3-months of rations, In-u got on a ship and left. The island is in the middle of the East Sea. In-u was from Samcheok.
Notice in the above record that Kim In-u was still being referred to as the “Usan-Muleungo Area Inspector,” and was sent to “Muleungdo” to bring back people living on the island. Again, the title suggests that Usan and Muleungdo were neighboring islands. I think the Muleungdo here is just a general reference to the area.
October 20, 1425 (Annals of King Sejong)
Usan-Muleung Area Inspector Kim In-u reported that he searched out and captured twenty men and women who went to “the island” (either “the island” or “main island”) to escape government service. In the beginning, In-u commanded two military transport ships, but one ship, with forty-six sailors on board, disappeared after encountering winds on the way to Muleungdo.
The king said to his ministers, “What do we gain by capturing twenty people when we lose more than forty? There are no special products on the island, so the reason people go there is simply to avoid government service.”
When Kim Ja-ji, the Minister of Rites, Protocol, Culture, and Education, requested that those captured on the island be judged according to the law, the king said, “These people did not secretly follow someone to a foreign country. Moreover, such transgressions were pardoned in the past, so giving out new punishment would be wrong.”
The king ordered the Ministry of Military Affairs to send the people to a village far away and deep in the mountains of Chungcheong Province so that they cannot run away again. He also ordered that they be exempt from government service and taxes for three years.
Notice that Kim In-u returned from “Muleungdo” with twenty people he found on the island.
June 19, 1436 (Annals of King Sejong)
Gangwon Provincial Governor Yu Gye-mun said: “The land of Muleungdo’s Usan is fertile and has many products. It is surrounded by the sea and is about 50 ri from both north to south and east to west. It is surrounded by rock cliffs, and there are also places where ships can anchor. Please allow me to gather people to settle this place. If we do this and assign a magistrate there, it will likely be a long-lasting endeavor.” The request, however, was denied royal sanction.
In the above record, the Gangwon provincial governor asked permission to settle “Muleungdo’s Usan,” which suggests that Usan was a part of the Muleungdo island group. The fact that he wanted to settle Usan instead of Muleungdo suggests that Usan was the main island. In fact, his description of Usan fits that of the main island of Ulleungdo.
February 8, 1437 (Annals of King Sejong)
The king wrote to Gangwon Provincial Governor Yu Gye-mun:
“In the autumn of 1436, you said that because the land of Muleungdo was so fertile that crop yields were ten times greater than the mainland and that because it had many products, it would be an good place to set up a hyeon (an administrative district) with a magistrate. You said we should consider it as a fence for the Yeongdong region (eastern Gangwon Province). I immediately had the ministers discuss the issue with several people and all of them said, ‘The island is too far from the mainland and the wind and waves are so severe that unforeseen difficulties would likely occur and, therefore, would be unsuitable for the establishment of a settlement. They recommended that it be left as it is.’”
“Now you say that you have heard from elderly residents that Japanese pirates used to come there and live for several years while raiding the Youngdong region, which left the area almost empty. I also think that Japanese pirates used to run wild while living on Daemado (Tsushima), raiding the Yeongdong region and even up to Hamgil Province. It has been a long time since people have been on Muleungdo, so if Japanese pirates have already occupied the island, then there is no telling what misfortunes lie ahead. However, now the circumstances are too difficult to set up a new hyeon, appoint a magistrate, and move citizens there. Instead, if we sent people to search the island each year and also gathered local products or set up a grazing area for horses, Japanese pirates may think the land belonged to us and think twice about secretly occupying it.”
“How long ago was it that Japanese pirates came and lived there? How many of these so-called elderly people are there? If we are going to send people, when are the wind and waves calm? Which month? If we go onto the island, what kind of equipment will we need and how many ships? Investigate thoroughly and report.”
The following report seems to be King Sejong’s response to the Gangwon provincial governor’s request to settle “Muleungdo’s Usan”; however, notice that the king referred to the island as “Muleungdo,” not “Muleungdo’s Usan.” The king and the governor were obviously talking about the same place, so that suggests that “Muleungdo” was either just another name for Usan or a general reference to the island group. I think it was the latter, given that the governor had specifically asked to settle “Usan.”
So far there has been nothing in Korea’s historical records to suggest that either Muleungdo or Usando was a reference to Dokdo. Instead, the records suggest that the islands were neighboring islands and that Usan was the larger of the two. The records also say that both islands had plant life on them and were inhabited at one time or another.
Okay, so where do Koreans get the idea that Usando was a reference to Dokdo? Well, they claim that the proof is in the following 1454 record, which comes from the geography text of King Sejong. The record is actually a description of Uljin-hyeon, which was the equivalent of a county in Gangwon Province. When Koreans quote the record, however, they usually omit the description of Uljin-hyeon and focus on only one or two sentences in the record. I will post the complete record because I think it is important to read the specific qoute in context.
1454 (Annals of King Sejong, Geography Text)
Uljin-hyeon
One JihyeonsaOriginally named “Ujinya-hyeon” during Koguryeo, the name was changed to its present name during Silla and made a gun. During Koryeo it was called “Uljin-hyeon,” which is still being used during our dynasty. People in the hyeon say that in the past it has also called “Bani-gun” and Seonsa-gun.
Yaksa-jin is to the south of the hyeon, and Goljang-jin is to the north. Its boundries stretch eight ri east to the mouth of the sea, sixty-three ri west to Andong’s Socheon-hyeon in Gyeongsang Province, thirty-seven ri south to Pyeonghae, and thirty-two ri north to Samcheok.
It has 270 lakes and a population of 1,430. Its military includes thirty-eight soldiers, seventy sailors, and four fortress guards. There are five local family names: Im (林), Jang (å¼µ), Jeong (é„), Bang (房), and Yu (劉). There is also a Min (é–”) from Yeongju.
Half the land is fertile and half is not. They make their living by fishing, but they also venerate martial arts. They cultivate about 1,351 gyeol of land, of which one third is rice paddies. The land produces the five grains, mulberry, hemp, persimmons, chestnuts, pears, and paper mulberry. They paid tribute of honey, beeswax, iron, wallnuts, mushrooms, gallnut, prickly ash, brown seaweed, lacquer, cured venison, fox pelts, wildcat pelts, deerskins, tiger pelts, pig hair (used for brushes), codfish, octopus, gray mullet, abalone, and hard-shelled mussel. The medicinal herbs they have are bokryeong mushrooms, Angelica uchiyamana root, Angelica decursiva root, bletilla, Schisandra chinensis, and ginseng. They have sixty-one local products, including slender bamboo, large bamboo, and salt.
There is one porcelain pottery shop ten ri to the north at Singok-ri, and one crockery shop twelve ri to the north at Gamdae-ri. All of their products are of poor quality.
The Hwangsan Stone fortress has a circumference of 616 paces 5 cheok, and is sometimes used as a the village fortress. Inside is four springs and one pond. The pond sometimes dries up during severe dought, but the springs never do.
There is a hot springs forty-four ri to the north, west of Heungbu Horse Station at Gusu-u Mulsan-dong. There are three horse stations: Heungbu (興富), which used to be Heungbu (興府); Deoksin (德神), which used to be Deoksin (å¾·æ–°); and Susan (守山), which used to be Susan (壽山). There are four signal fire stations. One is said to be at Mount Jukjin, which is south of the hyeon past Mount Jeonbanin and north of Pyeonghae’s Sadong Mountain. One is said to be at Jukbyeon Point, which is north of Mount Jukjin. One is said to be at Mount Geungchuldo, which is north of Jukbyeon Point. And the last is at at Samcheok’s Mount Gagok, which is north of Mount Geungchuldo.
Two islands, Usan and Muleung, are due east of the hyeon in the middle of the sea. The distance between these two islands is not far, so they are visible on a clear, windy day. During the time of Silla they were called Usanguk or Ulleungdo. [It] has an area of 100 ri.
People had thought the land to be too rugged to subjugate. However, in the twelfth year of King Lee Jijeung (512 A.D.), Isabu became the commander of Hasula-ju (an area that was around Kangneung), and said, “The people of Usan are ignorant and savage, so since it would be difficult to subjugate them with strength, we must use tricks.” He made many ferocious animals from wood, loaded them on his warships, went to the island, and told the people there: “If you do not surrender, I will release their ferocious beasts so that they can eat you. The people of the island were afraid and came and surrendered.
In the thirteenth year of Goryeo’s Taejo (930 A.D.), the people of the island (Ulleungdo) sent Baek Gil and To Du to pay tribute (see here) . In the thirteenth year of Eui Jong (1159 A.D.), Simchalsa Kim Yu-rip and others returned (from the island) and said, “There was a big mountain in the middle of the island. The distance from its peak to the sea was more than 10,000 paces to the east, 13,000 paces to the west, 15,000 paces to the south, and 8,000 paces to the north. There were remains of seven villages on the island. There were also a stone Buddha, a bell, and a stone pagoda. A lot of dropwort, mugwort, and moorwort grow on the island.”
It is said that during the time of our (King) Taejo (1392 ~1398 A.D.), a great many of our wandering people ran away to the island. Samcheon resident Kim In-u was again ordered to be the anmusa and to forcefully evict the people there and to leave the land empty. In-u said, “The land is fertile. The bamboo are as big as columns, the rats as big as cats, and the peach seeds as big a doi. All of its products are like that.”
Notice that the record is describing Uljin-hyeon and its surroundings by using Uljin-hyeon as a reference point and then giving compass directions and distances to the surrounding villages, military camps, and local landmarks. It also refers to Usando and Muleungdo by giving their location as follows:
Two islands, Usan and Muleung, are due east of the hyeon in the middle of the sea. The distance between these two islands is not far, so they are visible on a clear, windy day. During the time of Silla they were called Usanguk or Ulleungdo. [It] has an area of 100 ri.
When referring to the locations of the other places around Uljin-hyeon, the record gave a direction and then the distance in ri, but in the case of Usando and Muleungdo, after it gave the compass direction, instead of giving the distance in ri, it gave it by saying that it was close enough to be seen on a clear, windy day.
When Koreans look at the above record, they say that the record was referring to the distance between the two islands, themselves, not to the distance between the two islands and Uljin-hyeon. However, if that were the case, then we would not know where the two islands were. We would only know that they are due east of Uljin-hyeon, but we would not know how far east. With the Korean interpretation, the two islands could have been on the other side of the Sea of Japan, which would not be very helpful to people reading the geography book. Besides, after giving the distance to Muleungdo and Usando, the record gave the size of only one island, which suggests that the two islands were close enough together to be considered as one. Remember, Dokdo is 92 kilometers southeast of Ulleungdo.
Not only does the Korean interpretation of the 1454 record not make sense in the context of the 1454 record, it does not make sense in the context of all the records up to that point. There has been nothing in any of the previous records that would suggest that either Muleungdo or Usando was a reference to present-day Dokdo. On the contrary, the records suggest that Muleungdo and Usando were neighboring islands close enough to each other to cause name confusion. The records tell us that both islands had plant life on them, which did not exist on Dokdo. Both islands have also been described using the dimensions of Ulleungdo, suggesting again that they were close enough to cause name confusion. The records also tell us that people lived on both Muleungdo and Usando, but Dokdo did not have the soil, water, or other resources needed to support a settlement.
If anyone still thinks that the Korean interpretation of the 1454 record is reasonable, then let’s put a stake in its heart by looking at the following 1531 record, Sinjeundonggukyeojiseungram, which says the following:
Usando - Ulleungdo (鬱陵島)
Also called Muleung (æ¦é™µ) and U-leung (羽陵), these two islands are in the middle of the sea due east of the county. Three peaks shoot up to the sky. The southern peak is a little smaller. When it is windy and the weather is clear, the trees at the top of the peaks and the sand at their feet are clearly visible. With a good wind, you can travel there in two days. It is said that Usan and Ulleung were once one island with an area of 100 ri.
Notice that the above record says that on a clear, windy day the trees on the peaks and the sand at their feet can be clearly seen. This tells us that the record was not talking about Dokdo since Dokdo does not have any trees or sandy beaches. Notice also that the record says that you can travel to the islands in two days, which is how long it used to take to travel to Ulleungdo. To travel to Dokdo, it would have required three days travel time.
Below is a 1710 map of Usando and Ulleungdo with lines drawn to the two islands from the mainland.
On the bottom line drawn to the two islands, it says, “Two days travel time by boat.” That means that the two islands were next to each other. If either of the islands had been Dokdo, it would have required an extra travel day. By the way, in 1710, notice that Korean maps were still showing Usando west of Ulleungdo.
Finally, consider the question of whether Koreans in Chosun Korea were able to see Dokdo from Ulleungdo. Instead of arguing all of the reasons why it would have been difficult, I am just going to suggest that you watch the Dokdo video again. In the video, we saw a picture of Ulleungdo taken from a helicopter flying over Dokdo. Even when the camera zoomed out, we could still see a tiny Ulleungdo on the horizon. Well, this time when you watch the video, imagine you are not flying in a helicopter. And instead of looking at Ulleungdo, imagine you are looking at an island 429 times smaller than Ulleungdo.
Usando was most likely Jukdo, a small island less than four kilometers off the east coast of Ulleungdo. The following Korean maps of Ulleungdo clearly show that Usando was a neighboring island of Ulleungdo, not Dokdo, which is an island 92 kilometers away from Ulleungdo.
Korean Maps proving Usando was not Dokdo
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Links to More Posts on this Subject
Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 1
Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 2
Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 3
Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 4
Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 4 Supplement
Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 5
Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 6
Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 7
Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Maps 1
Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Maps 2
Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Maps 2 Supplement
Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Maps 3
Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Maps 4
Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Maps 5
August 18th, 2006 at 6:16 pm
Amazing stuff, Gerry. A real stake in the heart to Korean claims about Dokdo. I look forward to seeing more.
August 18th, 2006 at 6:50 pm
Great read, excellent post. I wasn’t going to download the video due to my incredibly slow internet connection and the fact that I’m limited by my laptop battery life, but I started reading the article and it was so good that I had to have the video.
Looking forward to the next installment.
RC
August 18th, 2006 at 11:42 pm
Really great post Gerry. This pretty much sums it up. Takashima is Japanese land.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:36 am
Spam VANK with this great post. Gerry is a champ.
August 19th, 2006 at 8:03 am
Gerry,
Thank you very much for your effort.
I can’t believe how can Koreans say “(Japan is) distorting history” while they Koreans themselves are distorting history.
Why can they blame the others while they are stealing neighbor’s island?
In the field of psychiatry, their beliefs seems to be delusions. Delusion can’t be incorrectable even if somebody show the truth, not like misunderstanding. When a schizophrenia patient had a delusion that someone stole his purse, even if his friend found it in his locker and showed it to him, the patient can’t believe it and would have another delusive thought that his friend might have stolen and hid it in the locker.
Korea is in just the mentally ill state like this. Or they were made to be similar to the mentally ill state by strong brainwashing. The government, school teachers, tv and radio programmes, newspapers and magazines say all the same thing to make believe the lie to be truth. And the books with different opinions were banned and can’t be published. Korea is today’s Nazis Germany or Military Japan.
Why don’t all the normal Koreans notice it and outcry for the truth?
August 19th, 2006 at 9:36 am
Pacifist…..Don’t you think calling a nation “mentally ill” is a little over the top?
http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/temp17.html
http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/temp24.html
http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/temp23.html
http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/temp21.html
http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/temp20.html
August 19th, 2006 at 7:19 pm
Korea’s political doctirine of today is neo-nazism, isn’t it? The name of S Korea today..”Great Korean People-State” (大韓民国）is reminiscent of the “Greater Germany” under the Nazis…or the Great Japanese Empire (大日本å¸å›½ï¼‰ for that matter…
I think the S Korean regime is hostile against Japan…it is morally corrupt, inhume and outright crazy. What a neighbor we have!
August 19th, 2006 at 9:13 pm
toadface,
I just wrote, “Korea is in just the mentally ill state like this. Or they were made to be similar to the mentally ill state by strong brainwashing”.
The anti-Japan propaganda of Korea is abnormal as one of the modern countries. This abnormality derived from the brainwashing propaganda of their government. The brainwashed people usually don’t know that they were brainwashed until all the information against their beliefs come to their ordinary life.
So toadface, stop refer to the pro-Korean Mark’s site. It is nothing but one of the tools of Korean government’s propaganda.
August 19th, 2006 at 9:17 pm
By the way, toadface,
Aren’t you the same person as “wedgie” in the Flying YangBan site?
http://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/04/warningnbsp_thi.html
Both of you sound as the same person.
August 19th, 2006 at 10:17 pm
Toadface - we have all seen Mark’s page. Posting a bunch of links without any commentary is really bad form.
RC
August 20th, 2006 at 1:37 am
Toadface,
I think Mark Lovmo may be a little mentally ill, given that he regularly mistranslates old documents to try to make a case that Liancourt Rocks was historically Korean territory. I also question your sanity, Toadface, given that you continue to post links to his site even after having acknowledged that some of Mark’s translations are wrong. Before you said you would ask your friend, Mark, to correct the mistakes on his pages, but it seems he still has not done it. I assume you agree with the content on the pages you linked to since you did so without comment, so let’s look at those pages.
Link One: Dokdo Though the Ages in Maps
The first thing that sticks out on this page is that “all” the maps on it are Japanese maps, and none of the maps say “Dokdo,” so I wonder why the page is entitled “Dokdo Through the Ages in Maps”? Shouldn’t it be entitled “Takeshima Through the Ages,” especially given the fact that their are no Korean maps or documents before 1905 that mention “Dokdo”?
The second thing that sticks out is that Mark Lovmo not only omitted text from the 1667 document, he also mistranslated it. Here is the correct translation:
First, notice that Oki Island is being used as a referrence point to give the locations of surrounding Japanese territory. You would not know this from the translation Mark posted since he omitted the part of the translation that I have marked above with italics. Why did he do that?
Second, Mark Lovmo mistranslated the last sentence of the quote. He wrote, “Thus Oki Island is the northwest boundary of Japan.” However, the document does not say that. It says, “Therefore, Japan’s northwest boundary is from this island.” Notice that Mark replaced “this island” with “Oki Island.” If Mark believes that “this island” was referring to Oki Island, he should have put Oki Island in parentheses, not change the text. Why did he do that?
Third, the phrase “this island” was referring to “Ulleungdo,” not Oki Island. We can surmise this because the sentence just before was talking about Takeshima (Ulleungdo), not Oki Island. Here was the previous sentence:
In the above sentence, “here” was referring to Takeshima (Ulleungdo) since that is the only place mentioned from which you can see Koryo (Korea). Therefore, in the sentence that followed, we can surmise that “this island” was referring to Takeshima (Ulleungdo).
Forth, Mark’s claim that the text on Japanese maps somehow links Takeshima (Ulleungdo) and Matsushima (Dokdo) is simply ridiculous. The text is simply a note saying that Korea can be seen from Takeshima (Ulleungdo). The note does not apply to Matsushima (Dokdo) since Korea cannot be seen from there.
Fifth, Liancourt Rocks were not made a part of Japan until 1905, so the color of islands on maps before 1905 really has little meaning. And that certainly does not mean that the Japanese considered the rocks Korean territory. In regard to maps after 1905, especially Shimane Prefecture maps, any omission of Takeshima (Liancort Rocks) would obviously be a mistake since there is a clear record, which includes coordinates, that says that Shimane Prefecture incorporated Takeshima in 1905.
Link Two: “The 1870 Secret Mission Report on Chosun (Korea)”
The above link again links to a page in which Mark mistranslates the relevant document.
Here is Mark’s translation:
Here is my translation:
First, notice that Mark translated “Matsushima” as “Dokdo,” again ignoring the fact that the text does not say “Dokdo.” If he believed it to be Dokdo, then he should have put it in parentheses to show that it was not actually said in the text..
Second, the document said that Matsushima was a neighboring island of Takeshima, which means that it was not talking about Dokdo (Liancourt Rocks) since Dokdo is ninety-two kilometers southeast of Ulleungdo.
Third, the document not only said that Matsushima was a neighboring island of Takeshima (Ulleungdo), but it also said that there was no record of it. This is another indication that the Matsushima being talked about in the document was not Dokdo (Liancourt Rocks) since the Japanese did have records of those islets. The 1667 Japanese document mentioned above is just one of those records. This 1724 Japanese map also shows that the Japanese knew about the Matsushima that referred to Liancourt Rocks. That means that the Matsushima mentioned in the 1870 document was a different Matsushima. In fact, in 1882, Lee Gyu-won, a Korean official sent to inspect Ulleungdo, found a marker on Ulleungdo dated 1869 that said Ulleungdo was named “Matsushima” and that it was Japanese territory.
Also, in 1696, a Korean fisherman named An Yong-bok said that he found Japanese fishing offshore of Ulleungdo who said they lived on an island named Matsushima, which Mr. An said was the Korean island of Jasando (å山島). Even Korean historians agree that Jasando (å山島) was most likely Usando (于山島), given that the Chinese characters å (Ja) and 于 (U) look similar. As I have shown in the main post of this thread, Usando was most likely Jukdo, which is a small island less than four kilometers off the east coast of Ulleungdo. That means that even Korean documents in the 1690s suggest that the Japanese were calling one of Ulleungdo’s neighboring islands “Matsushima.” Also, since the Japanese said they “were living” on Matsushima, we can be pretty sure it was not Dokdo (Liancourt Rocks) since Dokdo was just barren rocks that could not support a settlement.
Finally, the agreement from the 1690s, which Mark mentioned, recognized Korean claims on Ulleungdo, but not Dokdo (Liancourt Rocks.)
Link Three: 19th Century Mapping Confusion and Dokdo
Again, none of the maps shown on the page linked to are Korean maps nor do any of them use the name “Dokdo,” so why is the page entitled “19th Century Mapping Confusion and Dokdo”?
The confusion concerning Takeshima and Matsushima continued up until 1880, when the Japanese government finally sent the warship, Amagi, to Ulleungdo to survey the island and sort out the confusion. The Japanese captain discovered that Matsushima was actually Ulleungdo, and that Takeshima was actually a small island off the northern part of Ulleungdo. Here is the relevant part of the Japanese captain’s report:
Notice that the Japanese captain discovered that Matsushima was Ulleungdo and that one of its neighboring islands was called Takeshima. Up until this time, the name Matsushima was being used to refer to Liancourt Rocks, so after the 1880 report, the name Matsushima was given to Ulleungdo and the name “Liancourt Rocks” was used for Liancourt Rocks. When the Japanese incorporated Liancourt Rocks in 1905, the name for the rocks was changed to Takeshima. Even today, Ulleungdo’s neighboring island is called Takeshima (竹島), except that Koreans pronounce it as Jukdo (竹島). See the map of Ulleungdo on my main post.
Link Four: Japanese Illegal Aggression Recorded in Chosun Documents
The linked document is talking about Ulleungdo, not Dokdo. By the way, Mark mentions that King Gojong sent Lee Gyu-won to Ulleungdo to inspect the island, but he forgot to mention what Lee Gyu-won reported.
Mr. Lee reported that Ulleungdo had two neighboring islands, Dohang and Jukdo. The map he made of Ulleungdo, here, shows that Dohang was most likely present-day Kwaneumdo, and that Jukdo was present-day Jukdo. Mr. Lee also reported that he climbed to the highest peak on Ulleungdo but could see no other islands. Mr. Lee’s report shows that in 1882, the Korean government still did not know about Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo).
Link Five: “Dokdo and Japanese Naval Records
The above link shows that it was not the Koreans, but the Japanese, in the early 1900s, who first made reference to the name “Dokdo.” Here is the quote from Mark’s site:
The Japanese naval log said that the Koreans called Liancourt Rocks “Dokdo” while the Japanese fishermen called it “Lianco,” which was a Japanese pronunciation for Liancourt Rocks.
Notice that the quote said that “Japanese” vessels would come from Ulleungdo to catch sealions. There was no mention of Korean vessels. In fact, in a 1907 report about Takeshima and Ulleungdo (”竹島åŠé¬±é™µå³¶”) a Japanese named 奧原碧雲 wrote the following:
Based on the above, it looks as if it were the Japanese who were doing all the fishing on Liancourt Rocks in 1905. Of course, the Japanese may have also used Korean fishermen on their boats, which may be how the Koreans found out about rocks. At any rate, the rocks were not on any Korean map or mentioned in any Korean document before 1905.
Just being cognizant of an island or even fishing around an island does not mean the island was not terra nullius. Besides, it looks as if it was the Japanese fishing around the islets, not the Koreans.
Mark seems to use some of the same deceptive techniques that many Korean historians use when they talk about Dokdo and historical documents. For example, instead of translating what a document actually says, Korean historians often put ”Dokdo” in where they think it should go. That is fine, but they should use parentheses when doing it to show that it is only an opinion, and that the document does not actually say that. I guess they do that because they feel a little embarrassed by the fact that they are claiming an island that does not appear on any of their old maps or documents. I know I would be too embarrassed to say anything about it.
August 20th, 2006 at 5:11 am
The 1870 says Songdo is a neighbour island to Ulleungdo. Now I’ve been listening to you and Pacifist try to sell this rubbish theory that there is another Songdo next to Ulleungdo for over a year now and still I see no evidence. The fact they had no records was due to the fact that the Meiji government was still in its formative years. You can’t redraw maps of the East Sea based on your definition of “nieghbour island”
Gerry the mapping confusion maps prove that both Ulleungdo and Dokdo were simply mapped in Westerly locations. Are you trying to tell us that after almost two hundred years the Japanese stopped mapping Dokdo and doubled mapped Ulleungdo? This is wrong. Look at the maps by Yoshinaga Kashihara.
Mark Lovmo cites maps that are consistently accurate representations of the perceptions of Japan during the Meiji Era. Gerry as others have pointed out you post ancient inaccurate Korean maps and then put your spin on them. For example the Ullengdo maps you post have all the major islands on the south side of Ulluengdo when in reality Ulleungdo’s neighbour islands are on the Northeast.
Whoever was fishing/sealing on Dokdo in the early 1900s they were residents of Ulleungdo not Japan. If they weren’t Korean, they were trespassing or squatters as the Chosun document proves. Japanese did not come to Dokdo as a sole destination this proves that Dokdo residents were dependent on Dokdo for their existence
As Japanese documents and maps prove the Japanese knew the position of Ulleungdo and Dokdo quite well. If there was any confusion maybe they thought there was another island in the vicinity but as Mark site shows the Japanese often cited past historical references to confirm the positions of Ulleungdo and Dokdo.
The text by Saito Hosen is translated in a manner that makes sense unlike yours. It is not Mr Lovmo’s personal translation but one accepted by Korean and Japanese some Japanese professors.
Gerry before you call someone crazy you should check yourself.
August 20th, 2006 at 5:13 am
Classic
http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2719#comment-34042
August 20th, 2006 at 6:16 am
Toadface (Frogmouth),
The 1870 Japanese document said that Matsushima (Songdo) was a neighboring island of Takeshima (Ulleungdo), so how can you say you have seen no evidence of it? By the way, just because a new government came in does not mean they threw out all the old records.
The 1870 Japanese map below shows Takeshima (竹島), Matsushima (æ¾ë„), and Liancourt Rocks all on the same map.
1870 Japanese map
Six years later, in 1876, the following map appeared in a Japanese textbook. You will notice that æ¾å³¶ (Matsushima / Songdo) is drawn as a neighboring island of 竹島 (Takeshima / Ulleungdo). That matches up with the 1870 report.
Closeup of 1876 Japanese Map
Just below is the full map, even though it is too small to read:
1876 Map (full map)
Below is a 1878 Japanese Map that shows two islands named Matsushima (Songdo):
1878 Japanese Map with two Matsushimas
So, as you can see, there was another Matsushima (Songdo), which was probably what caused much of the map confusion.
Yes, Japanese were living on Ulleungdo in the early 1900s. You can call them squatters if you want to, but that does not change the fact that they were living there. There was even a Japanese policeman stationed on the island.
As for your other arguments, you will need to be more specific before I can address them. However, one thing is certain, whether it is Mark Lovmo or someone else, a person is being deceitful when he or she replaces the original placename in a document with the name “Dokdo.”
Also, I think it is deceitful when someone switches his ID from “Frogmouth” to “Toadface” and to other annonymous IDs to avoid taking responsibility for his previous comments. How many IDs do you post under, Toadface?
August 20th, 2006 at 8:34 am
Gerry, there are tons of maps of Ulleungdo and Dokdo showing consistent positioning of Takeshima and Matsushima in the same place. It is from these maps we should make conclusions. Marks website calls
(æ¾ë„) Dokdo because it is a historical fact the Japanese did as well.
If you feel (æ¾ë„) represented some other “neighbor island” the onus is on you to prove it. Which you haven’t.
The 1870 map shows Argonaut Island as Jukdo. It was confirmed non existent over a decade earlier. I don’t even know if that is a real map. Please don’t post second-hand scrawlings from Tanaka’s website.
The closeup map is Ulleugdo and Dokdo. That’s all.
You try to discredit the 1870 document by posting those maps but none of them show Songdo to be what you have defined to be a “neighbor island.”
The 1878 map is a freakish map for sure. Here is my point Gerry. Find a mapping trend to develop a theory. If they are inaccurate and they follow a specific pattern then we can make plausible assumption from there.
Marks cite deals with the mapping confusion in a logical manner. It shows initially the Japanese showed good positioning. It shows how the maps followed Seibold’s error and how three islands were mapped. And how rapidly the problem was corrected.
Look at the comparison between Japanese and British Navy maps. We can see how closely the Japanese followed the European maps. That’s what got them confused to begin with. We also know by the Japanese records the 1877 Dajokan document they used past historical documents that predated Seibolds error for reference as well.
I don’t see the 1880 survey as the end-all opinion or view of the Japanese government of the time.
Why can’t I change my handle?? Since when don’t I take responsiblity for my posts?
August 20th, 2006 at 8:35 am
NIce link eh?
Sorry……matt
August 20th, 2006 at 9:30 am
Toadface,
Even Mark Lovmo’s Web site shows that the Japanese suspected that there were two Matsushimas (Songdo) and that if the Matsushima in question was not Ulleungdo, then “it should be Japanese property.” Below is the 1878 document in question, as translated on Mark’s site:
Again, the document said that if Matsushima (Songdo) turned out to be Ulleungdo, then it would be Chosun (Korean) territory; if not, “it should be Japanese territory.” That means the Japanese only recognized Ulleungdo as Korean territory, not Liancourt Rocks. The document also urged that a survey be conducted to know for sure. That survey was conducted in 1880, and the results were that Matsushima was Ullleungdo, Takeshima (Jukdo) was a neighboring island of Ulleungdo, and Liancort Rocks were “Liancourt Rocks.” By the way, in 1882, Lee Gyu-won, a Korean official sent as an inspector to Ulleungdo, confirmed that Ulleungdo had a neighboring island called “Jukdo,” which is pronouced as “Takeshima” in Japanese.
The Japanese never recognized Liancourt Rocks as Korean territory, which would explain why the rocks never appeared on any Korean maps or in any Korean documents before 1905.
August 20th, 2006 at 12:13 pm
Japanese side argues that
(1) Japan had effective control over Dokdo since Edo period.
(2)Japan confirmed it in 1905
(3)Japan had had effective control over Dokdo until 1945.
In contrast, Mark’s argument, which I for one think is much better than the video above , is that,
A
1) Korean government had never recognized Dokdo before 1905.But
2)Some Japanese recognized Dokdo as Korean territory before 1905. Therefore,
3)Korea had the title to Dokdo before 1905.
Of course, Japanese side counter-argue against (2)
But even supposing (2) holds, as you can see, Korea’s claim is very weak.
Mark’s another argument is that
B
1) 1905 Japanese inclusion of Dokdo is void. Therefore,
2) Dokdo was no man’s land before 1945.
3)Korean effective control since then is valid.
For your reference, to show (1) holds, it must be proved that Korea had protested, but in fact she did not.
Toadface’s counterargument is that
1)’ Korea could not protest for good reason.
(BTW Japanese argument is that Korea could have as she did on other matters. but she did not because Korea knew Dokdo was not Korean territory)
This argument turns out to be weak:
Provided that 1)’ hold,
Korea had no ground to protest because Korean government had never recognized Dokdo before.
(And against 3), it is claimed by Japan, that Japan protested in accordance with international law;therefore, it is void and null).
Mark’s still other argument is classic.
C
1)Japan was evil imperialist.
2)Japan grabbed Dokdo for this evil Imperialist’s purpose. Therefore
3)Japan’s inclusion is void.
Against this Japanese side argues even evil Imperialist can not invade the territory that did not belong to Korea.
(as a side note, notice that Mark forgets mentioning that the inclusion was done in respond to Nakai,a fisherman’s request for economic purpose.)i
As you might have noticed, in all the arguments above, what is crucial for Korean side’s argument is,
Korean government recognized and had effective control over Dokdo before 1905
In this respect, what Gerry has shown here and will show in another post is very important for both sides.
August 21st, 2006 at 6:29 am
Ponta, I agree and most historians do as well that the Japanese colonial occupation of her neighbour was an immoral act.
Let me tell you why
In May of 1963 the International Law Commision with the draft submitted by the Special Rapporteur Waldock. In his draft he cited the coerced 1905 Japan-Korea Protectorate Treaty as one of four textbook instances of “a coerced treaty” in fact Hitlers coercion of the President of Czechoslovakia was one of the others.
Ponta, if I have to go with deciding someone’s definition of a coerced treaty, I think I’ll go with the Harvard School of Law rather than yours. I hope you understand.
Many Japanese don’t see any connection to Japanese expansionism and Dokdo but if you study the political events at the time of Dokdo’s annexation you can see Dokdo’s annexation was for military purposes first.
1. The Anglo-Japanese treaty of 1902 was expanded in 1905 and Great Brtiain confirmed Japan’s interests in controlling Korea.
2. The Portsmouth Treaty signed in 1905 also confirmed Russia interests in Korea and promised not to interfere in the region.
3. The Taft-Katsura agreement confirmed America’s support for Japan’s interests in Korea in exchange for America’s unchallenged control of Hawaii and the Philippines.
4. The Japan Korea Protectorate Treaty this treaty dismantled the Foreign Affairs office of Korea.
In 1905 Japan signed four treaties all with the purpose of stripping Korea of her sovereignty. It’s shameful Japanese Takeshima websites never mention the historical-military events surrounding the Shimane Prefecture Inclusion. I find it laughable that some posters say Korea had the means to dispute Japanese acts after all these treaties were signed. How could Korea protest……..better yet to whom?
The Japanese Foreign Ministry has committed a shameful act by trying to candy-coat the Shimane Prefecture Inclusion into a legitimate land acquisition when historical documents and Japanese Naval records of the time prove otherwise.
Japan had hundreds of years to lay claim to Dokdo. We should ask why Japan suddenly decided to include this territory covertly/coincidently following the Battle of Tsushima. We should also ask why Japan waited over a year before they told the Koreans they had annexed Dokdo. Maybe Mark should have a page detailing the political events in Korea surrounding the Shimane Prefecture. The Japanese seem to have forgotten.
The rest of the free world hasn’t and won’t.
August 21st, 2006 at 7:53 am
I don’t think S Korea is a member of the free world…you guys make holding certain political ideas a crime…you punish “pro-Japanese” ideas, confiscate property from the HEIRS of “pro-Japananese” (now this is really barbaric to the eyes of anyone from the trully free world)…your goverment still basically prohibits importation of Japanese goods and culture (such censorship is typical of authoritarian regimes that do not want its citizens to know too much)…you guys even support your comrade regime in the north that mass produces counterfeit money and narcotics, abuse its citizens, kidnap and kill foreign citizens, blow up airplanes…all these terrorist activities…it’s gonna be a long way until you enter the free world.
August 21st, 2006 at 9:43 am
Toadface
Yes, Japan was an expansionist.
When Korea became independent,
Japan left the all Japanese property in Korea.(That is all Germany did to Poland).
Japan apologized to Korea for what Japan did to Korea.
Japan compensated.
Anyway,
The point is
You can not invade Korea by announcing the inclusion of Dokdo, over which Japan had effective control since Edo period, of which Korean government had no cognizant . In contrast Korea did invade Japan by grabbing Japanese territory, Dokdo, against Japan’s protest, against USA’s will.
You emphasize militaristic purpose of the inclusion of Dokdo.I do not deny it. In the hindsight, it was partly used for military purpose. However, as your previous comment showed, The 1905 announcement was initiated by Nakai, a fisherman for economic purpose.
Toadface wrote
To a Japanese minister as when then the minister of Korea protested against the ally of England-Japan in 1905, or as when Korean King protested against 1905 treaty, resulting in a revision in the wording of the treaty. Or
To 9 heads of the foreign states as when Korean King sent a letter, protesting 1905 treaty.
But he did not protest with regards to Dokdo, because he remembered that he had a report to the effect Dokdo was not Korean territory.
Suppose ,for the sake of argument, he protested effectively, then that day become an critical date,after which “all matters arising after that date cannot be taken into account in deciding title to territory”,
What is Korean ground for the claiming the title to Dokdo.
Korea has no record of Dokdo before 1905.
Japan has.
After all Korea had no ground for protesting because Korea had no effective control before 1905;Korean geovernment did not recoginize Dokdo before 1905
Regarding the legality of the treay, opinions are divided among scholars, but I repeat,You can not invade Korea by announcing the inclusion of the territory which Korea had had no effective control before.
Toadface,
I regret Japan was an expansionist. You can paint Japan as evil as possible if you like.
You might win the heart of Korean people by emphasizing how evil Japan had been;it seems it’s part of Korean culture to hold the hatred, and some Korean people seem to think mistakenly that endless retaliations are justified, that endless hatred pays.(when in fact the hatred is backlashing with,or without Korea realizing iit)
Butt there is something you can not change by the hatred. You can not change the fact that Korea had no effective control over Dokdo but Japan had.
I am looking forward to seeing Gerry de-mystifying one of Korea mythology.
Mark might love Korea, but in the wrong way. i think Gerry loves Korea, wishing Korea grow up, Korea become mature.
August 21st, 2006 at 11:57 am
Toadface,
Korea did not protest Japan’s incorporation of Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo/Takeshima) because she knew the rocks never belonged to Korea. When the Japanese informed the head of Uldo County (Ulleungdo County) that they had incorporated Liancourt Rocks into Japanese territory, he did not protest to the Japanese. In fact, he was not even sure where the rocks were, which is strange considering that Koreans claim that the islets were under his administration. By that time, Koreans may have known about the rocks, but they had never claimed them, mapped them, or even talked about them in their old documents.
Arguing whether Japan incorporated Liancourt Rocks for military or economic reasons does not change the fact that Japan claimed the islets before Korea or anyone else did.
Korea’s historical claim on Dokdo/Takeshima is a big, fat lie. And what makes it worse is that Korean historians, who should know better, are either participating in the lie or are keeping silent about it. That is what I call shameful.
August 21st, 2006 at 6:03 pm
haha - imagine what would happen if one of those poor historians tried to speak out. By sundown he would be hanging from a tree by a rope.
Being an historian in Korea must be one of the most stressful jobs on earth. I don’t know how they sleep at night.
RC
August 22nd, 2006 at 8:20 am
BTW, I found the following document concerning Ulleungdo. This is not related to the topic directly, but it explains how was the relationship between Japanese and Koreans in Ulleungdo in the late 19th century.
In September 1883, Japanese government dispatched the Minstry of the Internal officers and police officers to let remaining Japanese return to Japan. There were about 250 Japanese in Ulleungdo, engaging in forestry and their relationship with Koreans were good.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
「æœé®®å›½è”šé™µå³¶å‡ºå¼µæªœåž£å†…務少書記官復命ノ件ã€:
å月七日蔚陵島ç€ã€å¹¼å¦è£´å¿ éš ã¨å¿œæŽ¥ç†è¨˜
書記官　「å°å®˜ãŒã“ã®åº¦æ¸¡èˆªã—ã¦æ¥ãŸã®ã¯ä»–ã®ç¾©ã«éžãšã€å½“島ã«åœ¨ç•™ã™ã‚‹æˆ‘ãŒå›½ã®äººæ°‘を残らãšå¬é€£ã‚Œé‚„ã‚‹ã¹ã我政府ã®å‘½ä»¤ã‚’奉ã˜ã€æ±½èˆ¹ã«æã˜ã¦æœ¬æ—¥ç€ã„ãŸã€‚ä¾ã£ã¦æœ¬èˆ¹ã¸æˆ‘ãŒå›½äººæ°‘ã‚’ä¹—ã‚Šè¾¼ã¾ã›ã‚ˆã†ã¨æ€ã†ã€‚了知ã•ã‚Œã‚ˆã€‚ã€
Japanese secretary: “The reason I came here is no other than the government order that says we should bring all the Japanese remaining in this island back to Japan. So I stepped on the stemship and arrived today. So I would like to let our people ride on this ship. Please understand this”.
å¹¼å¦ã€€ã€Œä»°ã›ã®ã‚ˆã†ã«è²´å›½äººæ°‘ã‚’ç·ã¦å¸°å›½ã•ã›ã‚‹ã®ã¯èª ã«è³€ã™ã¹ãã“ã¨ã§ã‚ã‚‹ãŒã€äº¤æƒ…ã«ãŠã„ã¦å®Ÿã«å¿ã³ãªã„ã¨ã“ã‚ãŒã‚る。ãªãœãªã‚‰ã°ã€æœ¬å³¶ã¸æ¸¡èˆªã—ã¦ã„る我ãŒå›½äººæ°‘ã¯é£Ÿã«ä¹ã—ãã€æ™‚々貴国ã®äººã«æ©æµã‚’è’™ã£ã¦ã„ã‚‹ã“ã¨ãŒåºƒå¤§ã§ã‚る。ã“ã®æ©ã¯å¿˜ã‚‹ã¹ã‹ã‚‰ãšã€‚願ã‚ãã°ã€ä¼æŽ¡ã—ãŸæœ¨æã¯å…¨ã¦æŒã¡å¸°ã‚‰ã‚Œã‚‹ã“ã¨ã‚’希望ã™ã‚‹ã€‚尤もã€ä»Šã‹ã‚‰å››å日間ã®çŒ¶äºˆã‚’貴国ã®äººæ°‘ã«çµ¦ã‚ã‚‹ãªã‚‰ã€ç©èˆ¹ã®æ¸¡æ¥ã‚’å¾…ã£ã¦éƒ½åˆã‚ˆã帰国ã™ã‚‹ã“ã¨ãŒå‡ºæ¥ã‚‹ã®ã§ã€è²´å®˜ã®ä»æ•ã‚’以ã¦é…Œé‡ã‚らんã“ã¨ã‚’希望ã™ã‚‹ã€‚ã€
Yogaku (Korean): “To let your people return back to your country as you’ve said is to be celebrated, but emotionally I can hardly bear it. Because our people who came here lack in foods, they were enjoying great favours from Japanese people. We will never forget their kindness. I hope they will bring all the woods they cut off back to Japan with them. I suppose if you give them 40-day extension, they will wait for the cargo ship and will be able to bring them back, so please take this into consideration”.
書記官　「既ã«ä¼æŽ¡ã—ãŸæœ¨æã‚’æŒã¡å¸°ã‚‰ã›ã‚‹ã®ã¯å°å®˜ã®æ¨©é™ã§ã¯ãªã„。å°å®˜ã¯ã‚ãŒå›½ã®äººæ°‘ã‚’ã¾ã¨ã‚ã¦å¸°å›½ã•ã›ã‚‹ã®ã«æ¢ã¾ã‚Œã°ã€å¸°æœã®ä¸Šã§ãã®åŽšæ„を我ãŒæ”¿åºœã«ç¨Ÿç”³ã™ã‚‹ã ã‚ã†ã€‚ã€
Japanese secretary: “I have no authority to make them bring the woods with them. The only thing I have to do is to let all the Japanese return to Japan, after that I will tell your kind offer to our government”.
å¹¼å¦ã€€ã€Œè²´æ„ã¯äº†è§£ã—ãŸã€‚ã—ã‹ã—ã€å復ã—ã¦è¨€ã†ã®ã¯æ縮ã®è‡³ã‚Šã§ã‚ã‚‹ãŒã€ãªãŠæ„šè¡·ã®ã‚ã‚‹ã¨ã“ã‚よã察ã›ã‚‰ã‚ŒãŸã„。先ã«è¿°ã¹ãŸã‚ˆã†ã«ã€è²´å›½äººæ°‘ã«æ•°åƒæœ¬ã®æœ¨æを与ãˆã‚‹ã“ã¨ã‚’望むã®ã¯ã€ä»–ã®ã“ã¨ã§ã¯ãªã„。我ãŒå›½ã®è€…数百åã¯ä¾‹å¹´ã€æ°·è§£ã‚’å¾…ã£ã¦æœ¬å³¶ã«æ¸¡èˆªã—山海ã®æ¥ã‚’å–¶ã¿ã€ç§‹ã«ãªã£ã¦æœ¬å›½ã«å»»èˆªã™ã‚‹ç¿’ã„ã§ã€ãã®åœ¨å³¶é–“ã«æˆ‘愚民らã¯ç³§é£Ÿã‚’貴国人民ã®ä¾›çµ¦ã«ä»°ãŽã€ã“ã‚Œã«å ±ã„ã‚‹ã“ã¨ãŒãªã„ã®ã¯ã€å®Ÿã«éºæ†¾ã®è‡³ã‚Šã«å ªãˆãªã„。願ã‚ãã°ã¾ã’ã¦è¨±å®¹ã‚らんã“ã¨ã‚’。ã€
Yogaku (Korean): “I see your will. I’m sorry to repeat the same thing again but please understand that we are sorry. As I’ve mentioned, we want to give thousands of woods to your people but we have no other intentions. Several hundreds of our people used to come to this island every year after ice melt, engage in fishery and forestry, and go back to their home in autumn. I deeply regret that these people were given foods by Japanese people but they can’t repay for them. So please grant my wish”.
書記官　「貴å›ã®åŽšæƒ…ã¯æ·±ã了知ã™ã‚‹ã€‚ã—ã‹ã—両国政府ã®å‘½ä»¤ã§ã¯ãªã„ã®ã§ã€ã“ã¡ã‚‰ã‹ã‚‰æ‰¿è«¾ã™ã‚‹ã“ã¨ã¯å‡ºæ¥ãªã„。貴下ãŒã¾ãŸã“れを許ã™ã¹ãç†ã‚‚ãªã„ã ã‚ã†ã€‚ã—ã‹ã—ã€æˆ‘ãŒæ”¿åºœã¯æ›´ã«å‘½ä»¤ã‚’下ã—ã¦ã“ã®ã‚ˆã†ãªé•å者ãŒãªã„よã†ã«æ³¨æ„ã™ã‚‹ã€‚ã€
Japanese secretary: “I deeply thank for your kind offer. But as far as it is not an order by any of the both governments, I can’t approve it. And you too can’t permit such things. Our government will order to take care lest these people should not violate a law”.
　話ã—終ã‚ã£ã¦ã€å¹¼å¦ã¯ãªãŠã‚‚通訳官ã®æµ…山顕蔵ã«å‘ã£ã¦ã€ã€Œæƒ…状を斟酌ã‚ã£ã¦äººæ°‘ã®å›°çª®ã‚’救助ã•ã‚ŒãŸã„ã€ã¨æ‡‡ã€…ã¨é™³è¿°ã—ãŸãŒã€ãã‚Œã¯å‡ºæ¥ãªã„ã“ã¨ã‚’ç”ãˆã•ã›ãŸã€‚
Even after the conversation, Yogaku asked the interpreter, Kenzo Asayama, saying, “Please make allowances for cicumstances and help our people in poverty” but I let him answer that we can’t do it.
　å月å四日ã€åœ¨ç•™ã®æ—¥æœ¬äººæ°‘ã‚’å…¨ã¦èˆ¹ã«ä¹—ã›ãŸå¾Œã«ã€ç—…æ°—ã‚’ã—ã¦ã„ãŸå³¶é•·å…¨éŒ«å¥ŽãŒå‡ºã¦æ¥ã¦å¿œæŽ¥ã—ãŸã€‚
On 14th October, after we let all the Japanese people ride on the ship, the chief of the island 全錫奎, who had been ill, came out and gave us a reception.
書記官　「・・・我ãŒé‚¦æ°‘ã®æœ¬å³¶ã«ã„ãŸè€…ã¯ã€å…¨ã¦é€£ã‚Œã¦å¸°ã‚ã†ã¨ã—ã¦ã„る。もã¯ã‚„é éš”ã®åœ°ã«æ®‹ã£ã¦ã„る者もã„ãªã„ã ã‚ã†ã‹ã€‚ã€
Japanese secretary: “We are going to bring all the Japanese staying in this island back to Japan. I wonder if there is nobody left in the remote places”.
島長　「もã¯ã‚„残留ã™ã‚‹è€…ã¯ã„ãªã„。実ã«è²´å›½äººæ°‘ã«ã¯å®¹æ˜“ãªã‚‰ãªã„厚誼をå¿ã†ã™ã‚‹ã€‚今度皆帰国ã•ã‚Œã‚‹ã®ã¯æƒ…ã«ãŠã„ã¦æ·±ãå¿ã³ãªã„ã“ã¨ã§ã‚る。ã€
Chief of the island: “No more people left. I deeply thank your people for their great help. In emotion, I can’t bear to see all of them are going back”.
書記官　「我ãŒé‚¦äººã‚’å…¨ã¦å¸°å›½ã•ã›ã‚‹ã«ã¤ã„ã¦ã¯ã€ã‚‚ã¯ã‚„一人も残る者ãŒãªã„ã“ã¨ã¯è²´ä¸‹ã®è¨¼è¨€ã™ã‚‹ã¨ã“ã‚ã§ã‚る。ãã®æ›¸å¥‘を与ãˆã‚‰ã‚Œã‚‹ã“ã¨ã‚’è¦è«‹ã™ã‚‹ã€‚ã€
Japanese secretary: “As you testify, there is no Japanese people left. I request you to give us the document”.
島長　「謹承ã™ã‚‹ã€‚（書契を出ã™ã€‚ãªãŠã¾ãŸä¸€æ›¸ã‚’出ã—ã¦ï¼‰æˆ‘ãŒå›½ã®è€…ãŒã€ç‰¹åˆ¥ã«è²´å›½ã®äººã‹ã‚‰åŠ©ã‘られãŸã“ã¨ãŒã‚る。別ã«æ›¸å¥‘を出ã™ã€‚足下よã‚ã—ã処å¼ã•ã‚Œã‚‹ã“ã¨ã‚’望む。ã€
Chief of the island: “I received your request. (He produced a document and then he produced one more document.) Our people were rescued by Japanese people in a special occasion. Here is another document. I would like you to deal prudently with this matter”.
　ãã®æ›¸ã«ã¯ã€
「・・・今年å¤åˆã€æœ¬é‚¦è«¸æ°‘三åä½™åã€ä¹—船入æ¥ä¹Ÿã€‚風勢ä¸åˆ©ã€æ³¢æ¶›æ´¶æ¹§ã€èˆ¹éš»ç‚ºé¢¨æ³¢æ‰€é§†äººå‘½ã€å¹¾è‡³æ²¡æ»ä¹‹å±å¢ƒã€è€Œå¹¸é ¼è²´å›½äººæ°‘慣水者之冒æ»å‡ºæ•‘ã€æœ¬é‚¦äººæ°‘三åä½™åã€å°½å¾—生活■ã€å…¶æ©æµå±±é«˜æµ·æ·±ãƒ»ãƒ»ãƒ»ã€
It said, “In early summer this year, more than 30 of our country’s people came to this place by ship. Wind was high and waves are raging, and the ship wrecked. But when they were on the edge of death sinking in the water, Japanese people who were good at swimming went to rescue them at the risk of their lives. Because of this, all of more than 30 people were saved from death. The favor of these Japanese is high as montains and deep as sea”.
島長　「今度貴国人民ãŒå¸°ã‚‹ãªã‚‰ã€å¾“æ¥ã‹ã‚‰è²´å›½äººæ°‘ã«ã‚ˆã£ã¦ç”Ÿè¨ˆã®æ©æµã‚’è’™ã£ã¦ã„る者ã¯é£¢æ¸‡ã‚’å…ã‚Œãªã„。ä¼ã—ã¦é¡˜ã‚ãã°ã€è²´ä¸‹ã«ã¯æ†æ†«ã‚’åž‚ã‚Œã¦ã‚‚らã„ãŸã„。ã€
Chief of the island: “If these Japanese people will go back, our people who have enjoyed favors from Japanese people won’t be able to bear hunger and thirsty. I would like to ask your favor, please feel pity”.
書記官　「ãã®ã‚ˆã†ãªã“ã¨ãªã‚‰æ¨ã¦ç½®ãã¨ã“ã‚ã§ã¯ãªã„。ã“ã‚Œã¯æ—¥éŸ“両国ã®å‹èª¼ã§ã‚る。もã—我ãŒå›½ã®å¸°èˆªã®ç‚ºã«é£¢é¤“ã¨ãªã‚‹å ´åˆã«è‡³ã‚‹ãªã‚‰æ•‘助ã®è«‹æ±‚ã«å¿œã˜ãŸã„。ã€
Japanese secretary: “We can’t remain indifferent to hear that. This is a friendship between Japan and Korea. If they will face famine because of our people’s return, we would like to respond to your request of help”.
島長　「救助ã™ã‚‹ã¨ã®é«˜è«ã«è¬ã™ã‚‹ã¨ã“ã‚を知らãšã€‚願ã‚ãã°ã€ç±³äºŒå五包（白米四斗二å‡ï¼‰ã‚’救助ã•ã‚Œã‚“ã“ã¨ã‚’。ã€
Chief of the island: “I don’t know the proper words of thanks to hear that you will help us. We would be pleased if you could give us 25 packs of rice (75-6 litter)”.
　ã“ã‚Œã«ã¦ç±³ã‚’æµæ¤ã—ã€åˆ¥ã‚Œã‚’å‘Šã’ã¦åŽ»ã‚‹ã€‚
So we gave them rice and said goodbye and left.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
There was amicable atmosphere, at least it seems that there was no hostility or hatred in those days. Reversely, this reminds us how Korean government today make their people hate Japan with the strong propaganda.
August 22nd, 2006 at 10:18 am
Here’s a real record of the Chosun government position at the time.
http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/temp21.html
This is the first of two documents I’ve seen in the Chosun documents regarding Japanese logging.
Pacifist. I love your choice of words. “to let remaining Japanese return to Japan. The contents of that report I’ve heard are not accurate as the Japanese ministers were under pressure to present a positive impression of the region for their superiors.
The correct term I believe was forcible evacuation. These Japanese were trespassing and after these squatters were kicked out they were let go free of being charged. If things were so great why did they feel the need to remove these illegals?
In contrast in 1837 trespassers were executed for being in the Ulluengdo region. We can see how illegal Japanese aggression in the region increased during this era
August 22nd, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Toadface,
When was the document written?
Lee Kyuwon inspected Ullungdo in 1882, am I right?
I guess Pacifist document is written in 1883link
And Japanese were evacuated by Japanese officers in response to Korean complaint, as described in your document, to the effect that some Japanese had been illegally logging the forest.
And Pacifist’s document was about the conversation between an Korean islander and a Japanese officer when evacuating.
Besides, according to the link, Japan and Korea agreed that Korea regulate illegal Japanese activity on the island.
Is it Japanese aggression that Japan agreed Korea regulate illegal Japanese?
I am afraid that Mark might have omitted an important aspect again.
August 22nd, 2006 at 4:56 pm
Ponta, toadface,
Yes, that was the report when Japanese people were evacuated from the island in 1883. There were 255 Japanese then while Koreans were only about 60 including the chief of the island. It said that many Koreans saw off the Japanese in tears as if they were relatives or intimate friends. I wanted all of you to know that there was a warm friendship between Koreans and Japanese in those days.
August 22nd, 2006 at 6:28 pm
Pacifist.
Thanks.
I guess it was wrong of me to expect Toadface to answer.He has never answered where Prangdo, imaginary island which Korean government asked USA to give Korea,was, and he has never translated the Korean “protest”, which was rather in fact internal document of the report. irrespective of the fact I asked many times.
Anyway.it is true that some Japanese were illegally logging the forest. And,
Mark’s
site make it clear that the document was made before Lee Kyuwon inspected.
And Lee Kyuwon inspected in 1882 and protested to Japanese authorities.
link
In 1883 there was an agreement between Japan and Korean concerning the treatment of Japanese criminals. For instance,
And in respond to the korean protest, Japanese were evacuated in 1883 by Japanese officials.
And Pacifist’s document show rather friendly relation between Japanese and Korean islanders.
However, Mark describes this situations as
Is illegal Koreans activities now in Tokyo the agression of korea as a state?
Is the agreement that Japan regulate illegal Koreans in Tokyo Korean aggression?
Is evacuating illegal Koreans from Tokyo the aggression if Korea?
—–I don’t think so.
I think Mark is inappropriate at least with regard to interpretation of this document. He put it out of context. Besides, the document does not mention dokdo at all.
But I am not sure so correct me if I am wrong.
August 22nd, 2006 at 8:30 pm
Thank you Ponta,
I’m with you, the Mark’s site is full of lies, including this word “aggreression”. There were many Japanese as migrant workers but they were not soldiers, they didn’t have malicious will or intention to invade Korea.
I think they were living in a peaceful unity with Koreans, or should I say they were living in a borderless world - it seems as a Utopia from today’s viewpoint while today Koreans see us Japanese with a look of hostility - as a result of strong propaganda of Korean government.
August 23rd, 2006 at 9:21 am
Pacifist, the Japanese who were illegally living on Ulleungdo were just trying to make a living. However, all over Asia during this time the Japanese government was deliberately encouraging a policy of moving in Japanese nationals into neighbouring countries and overwhelming the native residents. Ulleungdo was no exception.
I’ve never said these people were evil. But I believe that the policies of the Japanese government at the time had evil intentions. I think the Japanese Meiji Government initially was not hostile toward Korea and her neighbours. I think early on they had little interest in the region. But through the 1837 analogy we can see how Japanese policy changed.
You wrongly seem to think that Japanese illegal occupants and lumber was discontinued in 1883 but this is a fallacy,
In August of 1896 more Japanese were expelled from Ulleungdo after the Koreans signed a lumbering agreeement with Russia.
In 1898 the administer of Ulleungdo went to Matsue in Japan to start a lawsuit against illegal lumbering by Japanese on Ulleungdo.
In this time era expansionist Japan encroached in all directions.
In they North in 1869 they displaced the native residents of Hokkaido in the Kuriles_Sakhalin exchange Pact with the Russians. The Japanese then “emigrants” then entered the region en masse and forced out the aborigines.
In the South in May of 1874 the Japanese sent over three thousand naval and army soldiers to Taiwan it was ceded by 1895. In 1876 the Japanese took Bonin Islands and all residents became Japanese citizens by 1882. in 1914 they colonized Micronesia
In the East in July 1871 Japan renamed Weeks Island “Minami torishima” and made it another Japanese territory by a Tokyo prefecture public notice marking the Eastern boundary of Japan.
In the West during the Russo-Japanese War Japan took Dokdo. In the wake of this war Japan colonized Kuantungshu the southern part of the Liaotung Peninsula, In 1910 Japan annexed Korea.
In these time the Japanese Foreign Ministry hired foreign lawyers for the purposes of manipulating international law to acquire territory. For example two American Lawers (CW Laegendre and Gustave Emile Boassoade) were employed for this reason. The Japanese even consulted lawyers to see if the comments of Li Hung Chang “Taiwan is outside enlightenment” could be interpreted as a basis for taking over Taiwan as “terra nullius”
Japans illegal claim to Dokdo is a part of Japanese Expansionism and falls under the classification of “lands taken by violence and greed”. The acquisition of Dokdo was for military purposes and was not part of a natural, peaceful process.
August 23rd, 2006 at 10:20 am
Toadface
Japan was expansionist. I don’t think the readers need a proof for it.
What the readers need to know is whether Dokdo belonged to Korea when Japan was expanding. You have proved none.
Japan can not expand your territory by announcing the inclusion of what belonged to Japan.
Besides,
So after all,illegal Japanese were expelled.
As of 2005, there were 43,151 Korean illegal residents in Japan.link
(BTW Korea ranks the top of the list.)They would be expelled based on the law.
It does not follow Korea is expansionist.
It does not follow Korea’s purpose is to annex Japan.
Besides, the situation was relatively peaceful according to Pacifist’s document.
In addition, when we talk about “peaceful” acquisition in terms of international law, it means it means without contest, without protest.
Moreover, you are talking about the situation of Ulleungdo, but we are talking about Dokdo.
And the lands taken by violence and greed were returned to Korea:SF treaty and other USA document make it clear that territories which she has taken by violence and greed” in no way applies to Takeshima, which is an integral part of Japan’s sovereign territory.
It is Korea’s turn to return Dokdo, which she has taken by violence and greed.
August 23rd, 2006 at 10:27 am
Toadface,
There was no violence associated with the Japanese incorporation of Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo/Takeshima). In fact, the Koreans did not even know they had done it until a year later. And when the Koreans did find out about it, they did not protest it.
Even the United States recognized that the islets legally belonged to Japan, as was stated in the August 9, 1951 Dean Rusk letter. Also, in the 1952 treaty, the islets were not included among the land and islands that Japan was supposed to surrender. By the way, does Mark Lovmo’s site link to the Dean Rusk letter?
No, it was the Koreans in the 1950s who were motivated by greed and used violence to illegally claim and occupy Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo/Takeshima). The fact that Korea refuses to take the issue to the International Court of Justice is strong testament to the claim that even Korea knows her occupation was illegal.
August 23rd, 2006 at 1:38 pm
Yeah, Toadface. Get it right. If some ultra-nationalist Korean wanted to protest about something in 1906, they’d have started by whining about Japanese armies inside Korea.
August 23rd, 2006 at 3:39 pm
toadface,
You always distort the fact and tends to connect every single issue of war crimes to Takeshima/Dokdo, as if you were completely brainwashed by Korean government’s strong propaganda. But it is not true, the incorporation of Takeshima/Dokdo was not related to the war with Russia, although it was used for the war as well as other Japanese islands.
The incorporation of Takeshima/Dokdo into Shimane prefecture was done peacefully. Nobody claimed it and nobody was injured or killed.
But reversely, Korea robbed Takeshima/Dokdo brutally and illegally and even killed some Japanese fishermen. toadface, don’t you think that they are expansionists?
August 23rd, 2006 at 5:29 pm
empraptor
Korean Ultra-nationalists at the time was more brave than you think.
They were resiting to death against Japan;though,the largest political pary,Iljinhoe,was supporting Japan.
What makes you think that they would have known the existence of Dokdo?.There is no evidence that they knew the existence of Dokdo.
The myth of Dokdo began after WWâ…¡.
August 24th, 2006 at 8:55 am
Ponta, I nor the Korean have to prove anything to you. The Koreans have the island remember?
What you have to prove is that the Shimane Prefecture Inclusion (Japans only documented claim) was a legitimate land acquisition. The reason that Japan can’t muster international support on her claim is that the general public outside Japan (unlike you) understands all to well Japanese expansionism during this time.
I say there is enough evidence Japan’s annexing was an illegal land grab like most of the territories she “acquired” at this time. Part of the big Japanese lie is the feeble attempt by the Foreign Ministry to try to separate Japanese expansionism militarism from the annexing of Dokdo.
The Japanese government craftily stole Dokdo Island without making an official external announcement. This is totally opposite to the procedure the Japanese own government used in past land claims when the Japanese took the Bonin Islands Why?
The fact Japan says an external announcement is not a requisite for prior occupation is tantamount to admitting the Shimane Prefecture Inclusion of February 22 1905 was not an external announcement by international law.
The Japanese government claims that no external announcements needs to made when acquiring territory but this is highly debatable.
The 1885 Berlin Convention established regulations to be followed upon when colonial powers were to take over territories in Africa and these precedents were used in land acquisitions across the globe. Article 34 requires an open and public announcement to other powers.
The Japanese claim no external announcements is needed to acquire lands and then cite:
1. The Palmas Islands Case.
2. The Clipperton Islands Case.
In the Palmas Islands Case judge Huber did not rule external announcement was not necessary. He ruled in this case external announcement did not apply to this region.
In the Clipperton Islands case the judge ruled that notification was not necessary because France occupied the territory prior to the 1885 Act of Berlin thus was not applicable.
In short, the Japanese claim that external notification is not necessary is simply not true just because they say so. It is an oversimplification based on irrelevant precedents.
Gerry, I’ve shown you links to prove that Korea believed Dokdo was part of Ulleungdo county when Japan announced it to them. Korea’s internal disagreement is as far as they could have done at the time considering the Foreign Ministry was dismantled as a result of the Coerced Japan-Korea Protectorate Treaty. If you can find a law that states what degree an occupied country must dispute an illegal land claim let me know. At the time the Japanese stole Dokdo Korea had bigger problems that a couple of rocks 92 clicks from Ulleungdo.
In addition, I’m growing sick and tires of references toward US Forces and the allies. There are only a couple of useful facts from these documents that matter.
1. Japan lost (the illegal) effective control of Dokdo.
2. No further directives were issued on the status of Dokdo.
The allies (the same “allies” that screwed Korea decades earlier) are not god. It’s clear at the time after the war America and the allies were carving up Asia like a turkey while postering for the cold war.
Korea was right to take back what was hers before America burned again. America still maintains a neutral stance on the Dokdo issue to this day, so give it up.
August 24th, 2006 at 9:09 am
toadface,
You forgot the important point - Korea has not owned Dokdo in the past. Korea even never knew about the rock islets, until a Japanese hired Korean fishermen in early 20th century. So Korea doesn’t have a right to claim Dokdo at all.
As long as it hasn’t owned by Korea and Japan declared to incorporate it into Shimane prefecture in 1905, Korea doesn’t have a slightest right to claim Dokdo.
If you have objective opinions, you should show why Korea has a right to claim, before you murmur something.
Did Korea know the rock islets?
Are there old maps which depicted the unique shape of the two rocks? Did the Korean old document clearly say the concrete location of the two rocks, such as “two days water route from Ulleungdo to east” ETC?
If you can’t you should shut your toadmouth!
August 24th, 2006 at 9:51 am
Toadface,
The 1952 San Franciso Treaty recognized Japanese sovereignty over Liancourt Rocks (Takeshima). The US and her allies stripped Japan of Korea, Formosa, the Kurile Islands, and part of Sakhalin, but they did not strip her of Liancourt Rocks because they believed them to be Japanese territory, as was told to the Koreans in the Dean Rusk letter. That means that the US and her allies did not consider Japan’s incorporation of Liancourt Rocks in 1905 to be aggressive or illegal.
In 1906, the Korean head of Uldo (Ulleungdo) County wrote to his superiors telling them that the Japanese had incorporated “Dokdo,” which he said was part of his “county,” but if that were true, why didn’t he know the location of “Dokdo”? Afterall, he was the county head, wasn’t he?
In his letter, the Uldo County head said that “Dokdo” was about 100 ri east of Ulleungdo, but 100 ri was only about forty kilometers, which was not even half the distance to “Dokdo.” I think what happened was that the county head had heard of “Dokdo” for the first time from the Japanese officials who were visiting him and probably felt that forty kilometers should have put the islets in Korean territorial waters, which is why he wrote to his superiors asking them for their advice. I think the county head got the “100 ri” from the Japanese officials, but did not realize that the Japanese officials were using ri to represent kilometers. The fact that his superiors wrote back asking him to get more information on the islets shows that they did not even know much about “Dokdo.” I think that after an investigation, the Koreans realized that they had no claim on the islets, which is why they did not protest to Japan.
Toadface, in the 1950s, Koreans illegally and violently occupied Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo/Takeshima), which is why Korea does not take the issue to the International Court of Justice. The Koreans know they would lose.
August 24th, 2006 at 10:42 am
Toadface
Thanks
Oh, sure, you don’t have to prove anything to me. But you have to prove to the world outside Korea that the present Korean occupation is legal.
To be a legitimate acquisition, it needs to be (1)peaceful and (2)continuous display of effective control.
(1) Korea did not protest.
(2) Chronological Table of Takeshima
I understand all too well Japanese expansionism around this time.
And USA also understood it too well. USA was determined to see it that the territory which was taken by force and greed shall be returned ,
And even the USA. the most sympathizer of Korea, judged that Dokdo belonged to Japan, because Korea’s claim that Prangdo, nonexistent island, and Tsushima,and Dokdo, Japanese territory, be given to Korea was most unreasonable by far.
USA even suggested to send the issue to ICJ,so that Korea would be convinced itself. but nah, Korea rejected, thinking ““victory is reserved for a Korean team”, “only Koreans will be allowed to win, and they were not allowed to play .”anymore.
Now Japan showed, citing the precedence, that no external announcement is necessary. It is Korea’s turn that external announcement is necessary. But you have shown none.
In passing, the inclusion was not done in secret. It was announced by newspaper, it was announced to Korea, that is why local government reported it to the central government.
It is you that should find a law that states what degree an occupied country must dispute an illegal land. By the way, Korea was not occupied by Japan at the time. And modern state always has big issues, and if territorial issues is not a big issue for a state, what is?
The most important things is that you have not shown Dokdo belonged to Korea at the timeAll you have done is, in essence, Japan has been evil, so Japan’s claim is evil, so Japan’s claim is not valid.(this is consistent Korean formula on other issues too).
Korean claim is this: once you lose sight of your bag, it is up for grab.
I am not sure if that is true in Korea, but in Japan and in civilized countries, even if you lost your bag, somebody should take it to the police, if the authority judged it it was yours, it would be returned to you.
Toadface I appreciate your effort.
August 24th, 2006 at 10:48 am
toadface wrote:
確ã‹ã«ãƒ™ãƒ«ãƒªãƒ³è°å®šæ›¸ã§é ˜æœ‰ã®é€šçŸ¥ãŒç¾©å‹™ã¥ã‘られãŸãŒã€ãã‚Œã¯ã‚¢ãƒ•ãƒªã‚«åœ°åŸŸã®ã¿ã§ã‚ã‚Šã€
ãã®å¾Œã®ã‚µãƒ³ã‚¸ã‚§ãƒ«ãƒžãƒ³æ¡ç´„ã§ã¯ã€é€šå‘Šã®ç¾©å‹™ã¯é™¤å¤–ã—ã¦ã„る。
A notice of possession was surely obliged to with Berlin protocol.
But it was only an African area.
And it was deleted in a the later Saint-Germain treaty.
一度義務ã§ã‚ã£ãŸã‚‚ã®ãŒã€ç¾©å‹™ã§ã¯ç„¡ãã™ã‚‹ç‚ºã«å‰Šé™¤ã•ã‚ŒãŸã®ã§ã‚る。
There was at once.
And it was deleted to invalidate duty.
よã£ã¦ã€æ¡ç´„ãªã©ã®æ–‡æ›¸åŒ–ã•ã‚ŒãŸã‚‚ã®ãŒç„¡ã„é™ã‚Šã€é ˜æœ‰ã®é€šçŸ¥ã«ç¾©å‹™ãªã©ç„¡ã„。
Therefore, there is not duty for a notice of possession because there is not a thing done documentations such as treaties of.
August 25th, 2006 at 9:34 am
The Koreans acquired Dokdo because it was terra nullius. Japan was obligated to release the islands under the conditions of surrender. So the island was ownerless as Japan had ceased exercising (illiegal) effective control over Dokdo.
Korea acquired the islands as an new independent country and is not subject to the whishes of the Allied forces. Unfortunately Japan was.
For the last time.
America issued no further decisions regarding Dokdo with respect to Japan so Korea took back what was hers.
What is American policy on Dokdo these days?
Sqz: The Berlin Act was often cited as the proper procedure for acquiring land beyond the African continent. Many lega; scholars of the time felt the Berlin Act had greater impact than just for Africa and considered it a general international guideline. For example:
M.F Lindley wrote in “The Acquisition of and Government of Backward Territory in International Law in 1926….There were no colonial states which took exception to the application of the new rule of occupation and it seems to be justified to say that all recent acquisition of territory obeys this rule whether it is the African coast or not.
Charles de Vissher wrote in “Theory and Reality in Public International Law” Princeton Press “The Berlin Act was devised to set up a legal rule relating to occupation of ownerless territory while guaranteeing benefit of peace, protection of indigenous prople and freedom of trade. This is clearly a collective and normative act establishing a highly internationalized legal regime.
Legal scholar Charles G Fenwick expresses his view on notification as follows: The provisions of the Berlin Convention showed the desirability of formulating a general rule of international law upon the subject. In consequence the question was taken up by the Institute of International Law which offered in 1888 a Draft of International Declaration Regarding Occupation of Territories..
There are more legal scholars who share the same views but I don’t have the time to post them all.
In addition the treaty of Saint Germain was signed in 1919 long before the annexing of Dokdo. So you see, just because the Japanese Ministry says notification is not necessary it doesn’t mean it is so. the Japanese don’t take into consideration the differences in past precedents. As you see many legal experts from the past disagree with Japan’s position.
August 25th, 2006 at 10:41 am
toadface
ã§ã¯ã€éŸ“国ã¯é ˜æœ‰ã®å‘ŠçŸ¥ã‚’ã€ä¸–ç•Œã®ã™ã¹ã¦ã®å›½ã«ã—ã¾ã—ãŸã‹ï¼Ÿ
Then, did Korea make a notice of possession of Korean territories for all world countries?
ã—ã¦ã¾ã›ã‚“ã。
No, it did not.
よã£ã¦ã€ç«¹å³¶ã©ã“ã‚ã‹æœé®®åŠå³¶ã‚‚鬱陵島もã€ã™ã¹ã¦ã®éŸ“国ã®é ˜åœŸãŒç„¡åŠ¹ã«ãªã‚Šã¾ã™ã‚ˆã€‚(笑
Therefore, Takeshima, The Korean Peninsura, Ulleungdo, all Korean territories is invalid.
ãã†ãã†ã€SF講和æ¡ç´„ãŒã‚ã‚‹ã¨è¨€ã£ã¦ã‚‚ã€ãã‚Œã§ã¯ä¸è¶³ã§ã™ã‚ˆã€‚
By the way, it is lack by an SF peace treaty.
調å°ã—ã¦ã„ãªã„国々ãŒæ²¢å±±ã‚ã‚Šã¾ã™ã‹ã‚‰ã€‚
Because there is many countries where it did not sign.
韓国ã¯æ¡ç´„ã«èª¿å°ã—ã¦ã¾ã›ã‚“ã。
Korea did not sign a treaty.
ãã‚Œã‹ã‚‰ã€éŸ“å›½å¤§çµ±é ˜ãŒå®£è¨€ã—ãŸã¨ã„ã†ç†ç”±ã‚‚無駄ã§ã™ã€‚
And, The reason that President of Korea declared it is useless, too.
マスコミãŒå ±é“ã—ãªã‘ã‚Œã°ã€èª°ã‚‚知りãˆã¾ã›ã‚“ã‹ã‚‰ã€‚
Because if mass communication did not report it, anybody can not know it.
世界ã®ã™ã¹ã¦ã®å›½ã®æ”¿åºœã«å¯¾ã—ã€éŸ“国政府ãŒå‘ŠçŸ¥æ–‡æ›¸ã‚’é€ä»˜ã—ãªã‘ã‚Œã°é§„ç›®ã§ã™ã‚ˆã€‚
The Korea government must send a notice document for the government of all world countries.
August 25th, 2006 at 1:05 pm
Toadface.
Big thanks.
Korean government and MaK have been claiming that dokdo has belonged to Korea from ancient times. Here Toadface makes it clear that they were lying. He says, Dokdo was not not owned by any state,
that means it was not owned even by Korea. I think Gerry’s post here and in his blog are taking effect.
Now, the directive toadface is talking about was issued by SCAP
As for the external notification,
Japan has shown it is not necessary.
All Toadface has shown is some scholars do not think it is not necessary.
Toadface has yet to show that it is necessary, citing the precedence.
He has yet to show Japan failed to the notification that is necessary in terms of international law.
Thank you.
August 26th, 2006 at 7:14 am
SQZ: The Berlin Act doesn’t anything about notifying all countries upon acquiring land it states simply giving notification. Japan gave none.
First, the announcement made was internal and made by a regional branch of government. Local government announcements cannot be seen as intent of a state’s will.
The Governor of Shimane Prefecture is merely an administrative organ which could announce publicly administrative action under Japan’s domestic law, but cannot represent the State, in marking declaration or notification of the occupation of territory or the intention of sovereign occupation by the State under international law. The public announcement by the Governor of Shimane Prefecture was not an act beyond power, but an act without power.
A notice is designed for many and unspecified people ⑴ to inform them do a specific matter, ⑵ to announce the enactment of a law or regulation ; ⑶ and to make public an administrative disposition or legislation. The Shimane Prefecture Public Notice No. 40†is not a declaration or notification of occupation because it was not conducted as an interstate activity but was merely an administrative action under municipal law.,, the Shimane Prefecture Public Notice No. 40†is non-existent as a declaration of occupation or notification under international law.
Yes, Ponta I have shown some legal experts disagree with Japan’s statement that notification is necessary. These people were/are a more credible source of information than you or I. When Princeton University publishes your works let me know
Therefore, my point is valid. That being, just because the Japanese Foreign Ministry says notification is not necessary doesn’t make it so.
Before the world will hear Japan’s claim toward Dokdo I think the Japanese Foreign Ministry should answer some questions.
1) Why didn’t the Japanese follow their own standard procedure of land aquisition like the did when they incorporated the Bonin Islands ?(they notfied Britain and US)
2) Why did they wait a full year before notifying Korea?
Ponta, Japan was stripped of Dokdo and no future instruction on its ownership were given. Case closed. What does America say about Dokdo now? Do they support Japans claim. NO !!
August 26th, 2006 at 10:36 am
toadface wrote:
ベルリンè°å®šæ›¸ã§ã¯ã€è°å®šæ›¸ã«èª¿å°ã—ãŸå›½ã€…ã«ã ã‘告知をã™ã‚Œã°ã„ã„ã®ã§ã™ã€‚
With Berlin protocol, government should notify only the countries which signed a protocol.
ãã®ç¾©å‹™ã‚‚è°å®šæ›¸ã«èª¿å°ã—ãŸå›½ã€…ã«ã ã‘ã—ã‹ã‚ã‚Šã¾ã›ã‚“。
There is the duty only in the countries which signed a protocol.
日本も韓国もã€ãƒ™ãƒ«ãƒªãƒ³è°å®šæ›¸ã«èª¿å°ã—ã¦ã„ã¾ã›ã‚“。
Neither Japan nor Korea signs Berlin protocol.
ã—ã‹ã—ã€å›ã¯æ…£ç¿’法ã«ãªã£ãŸã¨ä¸»å¼µã—ã¾ã—ãŸã€‚
But, you insisted that it became a customary law.
慣習法ãªã®ã§ã™ã‹ã‚‰ã€ä¸–ç•Œã®ã™ã¹ã¦ã®å›½ã€…ã«é©ç”¨ã•ã‚Œã¾ã™ã€‚
Because it is a customary law, it is applied to all world countries.
韓国ã¯é ˜æœ‰ã®å‘ŠçŸ¥ã‚’ã€ä¸–ç•Œã®ã™ã¹ã¦ã®å›½ã«ã—ã¦ã¾ã›ã‚“ã。
Korea did not make a notice of possession of Korean territories for all world countries.
よã£ã¦ã€ç«¹å³¶ã©ã“ã‚ã‹æœé®®åŠå³¶ã‚‚鬱陵島もã€ã™ã¹ã¦ã®éŸ“国ã®é ˜åœŸãŒç„¡åŠ¹ã«ãªã‚Šã¾ã™ã‚ˆã€‚(笑
Therefore, Takeshima, The Korean Peninsura, Ulleungdo, all Korean territories is invalid.
August 26th, 2006 at 1:16 pm
Toadface
What do these questions have to do with the title of Dokdo?
To acquire the territory, you need the treaty,or the effecitve control without contest.Japan satisfy the latter.
There might be many speculations as to your questions, and some Koreans love conspiracy theory but in any case it does not matter. Asking irrelevant questions is not a good way for Korea to prove that (1)Korea recognized Dokdo ,(2)Korea had effective control over Dokdo.
Japan was temporarily prevented from exercising administrative power over Dokdo. SCAP had no power to give or take the territory. That is why SF treaty was concluded. It is reasonable to suppose that at the latest, when the SCAP dissolved, its directive became legally ineffective.(who legally binds Japan by the SCAP directive when there is no SCAP ?)
USA recognized that Dokdo belonged to Japan, that Korea claim is groundless.
And USA has been a mature nation, it does not want to be involved in the territorial issue. So it suggested Korea to send the issue to ICJ if Korea had complaints. USA’s position is consistent. It wants Korea and Japan to settle the issues peacefully. Nonetheless, Korea grabbed DoKdo by force and greed.
And some Japanese fishermen were killed.
And now Korean Navy is preparing for the war with Japan.ーーーscary, one might mistake SK for NK if he/she is not careful.
August 27th, 2006 at 11:10 pm
Ponta. says:
1. The Republic of Korea has been confidentially informed of the United States position regarding the islands but our position has not been made public
This is not an official statement that can be seen as the intent of America.
First of all as I mentioned. Who made America the moral authority as to which state gets to own which territory in Asia.
America is a mature country. Just a few years before the Dokdo problem arose they bombed your country back to the stone stone ages. Do you agree with that decision. America couldn’t have cared less who was the rightful owner of Dokdo as this time. The had Japan defeated and if the gave Dokdo to Japan they would have easier access to the East Sea.
Second of all, what is the attitude of the Amercian government in more recent times? A lot more evidence has come forward since then. America does not support Japans claim to Dokdo.
Ponta says:
2. Japan was temporarily prevented from exercising administrative power.
There were no further instructions given to the status of Dokdo by the Americans and the Koreans now have the islands. Korea was not bound by any other treaty upon taking over command from USFK.
In conclusion. Too bad.
Korea has never fired a shot in an offensive manner. All military actions were in a defensive manner because Japanese aggressively tried to invade the area.
SQZ: When Korea declared her sovereignty she announced all territories that were inclusive to her land and Dokdo was included.
As I’ve mentioned many legal experts agree the Berlin Protocal has validity beyond the scope of the African continent.
3. The Governor of Shimane Prefecture is merely an administrative organ which could announce publicly administrative action under Japan’s domestic law, but cannot represent the State, in marking declaration or notification of the occupation of territory or the intention of sovereign occupation by the State under international law. The public announcement by the Governor of Shimane Prefecture was not an act beyond power, but an act without power.
4. A notice is designed for many and unspecified people ⑴ to inform them do a specific matter, ⑵ to announce the enactment of a law or regulation ; ⑶ and to make public an administrative disposition or legislation. The Shimane Prefecture Public Notice No. 40†is not a declaration or notification of occupation because it was not conducted as an interstate activity but was merely an administrative action under municipal law.,, the Shimane Prefecture Public Notice No. 40†is non-existent as a declaration of occupation or notification under international law
August 28th, 2006 at 12:20 am
Toadface
Thanks
1
That is right, and that makes American statement about Dokdo credible. and they concluded Dokdo belonged to Japan.
America does not support Korea’s claim either. American position is the issue should be settled peacefully. She suggested the issue to be settled by ICJ. Japan agreed, Korea rejected because Korea know it was illegal..
2
That there was no further instructions, coupled with SF treaty and other documents is a proof that Dokdo belonged to Japan.
Korea is bound by international law, and probably also by simple moral law if i am not mistaken:Do not steal.
Korea has fired a shot and as a result some Japanese fishermen were killed, and many were wounded. They were detained and released later, but their ships were taken up and Koreans used them.
Whether Japanese fishermen invaded depends on whether Dokdo belongs to Korea. and Dokdo does not belongs to Korea, Korea has been illegally occupying it, killing and wounding Japanese fishermen. Korea’s occupation is not peaceful at all.
3
To acquire the territory, the effective control is necessary. and sufficient.
The effective control by local government is good enough as the precedence shows.
Japan showed the precedences where notification was not necessary.
Toadface, could you show us the similar case where the title was denied because the notification was like Shimane’s?Then and only then people will be convinced. Please for the sake of Korea, show us the precedence..
Japan had effective control sufficient enough, according to the precedence, to establish the title.
On the other hand all Korea has is illegal occupation
BTW I think Roh is a great president. I was not interested in Dokdo before Roh made a fuss. Probably many Japanese were like that. And Korean navy is preparing the war with Japan about Dokdo.That is a proof that it is a disputed island. Let’s settle it peacefully at ICJ. If Korea wins, she get much larger EEZ. Does that sound good for Korea?
August 28th, 2006 at 1:20 am
Toadface
lest you be deceived by Korean histrians.
incident
(Japanese version is written in much detail)
Do you call firing away civilian fisherman by a machine gun “defensive”
Ask Korean histrians how many Japanese fishermen were killed, wounded, detained. Ask them how brutally they were treated.
August 28th, 2006 at 2:05 am
Ponta, Korea didn’t steal Dokdo they took back what they claimed in 1900. Remember this?
http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/temp16.html
Ponta says
To acquire the territory, the effective control is necessary. and sufficient.
The effective control by local government is good enough as the precedence shows.
First the case you cite was 50 years after the laws regarding notification were changed in 1919 via the St Germain Treaty.
Secondly effective control must be uncontested and Korea contested it. Whether you agree it was sufficient is irrelevant. Given the fact that the Korean Foriegn Ministry was dismantled at this time the Korean illustrated cleary they considered Dokdo Korean territory. Korea protested through media and through what governmental organs (provincial and municipal) were still intact.
Period. Effective control doesn’t come first it comes after the required legal procedures are fulfilled. You are putting the cart before the horse Ponta.
Read above what I’ve posted and you will see the Japanese postion is full of holes.
Claims made by municipal governments cannot be made on behalf of a state. California can’t claim Hawaii on behalf of America.
In addition, the issue of notification is debatable as well and the quotes from international experts support my views.
Just because the Japanese Foreign Ministry says notification isn’t necessary doesn’t make it so.
Japan refused to go to ICJ on other issues. Didn’t they?
If Korea makes Dokdo habitable they get a larger EEZ anyway. So why bother?
BTW. Don’t use Dean Rusk as a moral guide to who gets what territory in Asia. First of all Dean Rusk was a strict anti-Communist. He was in favor of military action in both Vietnam and Korea and believed in the use of military power to prevent the spread of Communism in Asia. It’s clear he was on Japan’s side in the Dokdo issue to give the States a good position while anticipating the oncoming cold war with Russia.
August 28th, 2006 at 4:45 am
Toadface
Thanks
Do you seriously believe that Imperial Ordinance No. 41 in 1900 is a claim to dokdo?
Where is Dokdo mentioned?
And tell me if Korea notify it to Japan.
Legally,
According to ICJ, the reference must be so clear as to leave no doubt.
But Korea’s document leave tons of doubts, since it did not mention Dokdo at all.
Historically,
Kwanundo 観音島　was called sokdo
map
石　was pronounced as sok in Ulleungdo.
toron
石　is still read as seok　in Korea
http://www.watanabesato.co.jp/wldculture/korea/kws.htm#so
石　is still pronounced as seok in Ulleungdo.
http://www.ulleung.go.kr/Ullung_English/sub2_03.html
In Jeodong (ì €ë™), the largest village on the island, there are the famous Bongnae (봉래) waterfall and Seokpo (ì„í¬) village that provides a beautiful trekking course. You can also enjoy looking at neighboring Jukdo (죽ë„) and Gwaneumdo (ê´€ìŒë„) islands while trekking http://english.daegu.go.kr/group02/chingusai/200307.htm
Thus it is most reasonable to assume 石島 in ordinance refer to Kwanundo.
That some Koreans in Ulleungdo from 全羅é“pronounced 石　as Dok is no proof that Sokdo in question is Dokdo.
(1)Not everyone is from å…¨ç¾…é“ province In fact as of 1906, it is reported that most people were from 江原é“æ…¶å°šé“ http://toron.pepper.jp/jp/take/hennyu/ishijima2.html
(2) It must be proved ,and it is essential that these people fromå…¨ç¾…é“ actually referred to Dokdo/takeshima by “Doksum”.So far no Korean historians proved it. All they proved that there is a dialect in which some people pronounced 石　as Dok.
Sorry, but I don’t understand what you are saying here.
You are right. Whether I agree or not is irrelevant. But the fact
remain that Korea did not protest to Japan or any other countries.
To whom?
Do you mean legendary Korean bear (was it a tiger?) took the legal procedure before he had effective control over peninsula? ーーーDamn, why did the Korean history not mention it!
And Dokdo was not owned by Korea, and Japan had effective control.
Just give us a precedence, if there is none, tell us so.
What other issue are you talking about?Which country suggest to send the matter to ICJ?
No, Korea can not. But if Korea win at ICJ, she is most likely to l get larger EEZ.
It was not Rusk it was a Report of Van Fleet mission.
You said before “America couldn’t have cared less who was the rightful owner of Dokdo as this time.” Now you changed you view, didn’t you?
What makes USA on Japan’s side? No conspiracy theory is needed here.
USA was reasonable in rejecting Korean claim that Prangdo= non-existent imaginary island , Tsushima and Takeshima=Japanese islands, be given to Korea
I love USA.
August 28th, 2006 at 4:46 am
Toadface,
The Uldo (Ulleungdo) County head said “Dokdo” was 100 ri from Ulleungdo, but it was actually over 200 ri. If Dokdo had really been a part of Uldo County, why didn’t the county head know where the island was? Why did he say 100 ri?
I think he said 100 ri because the Japanese told him it was 100 ri away. By that time, the Japanese were using ri to refer to kilometers, but, as far as I know, the Koreans were still using a 0.4 kilometer ri.
The Koreans may have heard of Dokdo, and some Koreans may have even fished there, but Dokdo was not Seokdo, which was the Ulleungdo neighboring island that was made a part of Uldo County in 1900.
In 1882, Lee Gyu-won surveyed Ulleungdo and said it had two neighboring islands called Jukdo and Dohang. The map he draw of Ulleungdo shows Jukdo to be present-day Jukdo and Dohang to be present-day Kwaneumdo, both of which are neighboring islands of present-day Ulleungdo. The 1900 Royal Edict also said that Ulleungdo (蔚陵島) had two neighboring islands, which were Jukdo (竹島) and Seokdo (石島). Ulleungdo and its two neighboring islands were referred to as Uldo County.
Seokdo (石島) means “rock island,” and Dokdo (ç¨å³¶) means “lonely island, which means that not only are the names of the two islands different, but their Chinese characters and their meanings are different.
Yes, Koreans claim that in the Cholla dialect “Seok” (石) is sometimes pronounced as “Dok,” but that that would still not explain the difference in Chinese characters. And even if “Dokdo” had been a nickname for Seokdo, it is very, very unlikely that the head of the county would send an official letter to his superiors using the “nickname.” The letter would have referred to the island by its official name.
I think the Korean county head heard the Japanese say that “Dokdo” was 100 ri east of his county, misunderstood 100 ri to be 40 kilometers, and felt that that was too close to his county to be considered Japanese territory. He did not know that “Dokdo” was actually 92 kilometers away. If Dokdo had really been part of his county, he would have known where it was located.
By the way, his superiors did not know where Dokdo was, either, and told the Uldo county head to investigate the island and report. Since Korea never did protest to the Japanese about their incorporation of Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo/Takeshima), the Korean investigation must have shown that “Dokdo” was not part of Korean territory.
By the way, I used to know a Steve Barber who was a Korean linguist in the army in the late 1970s. We went to DLI together. I wonder if the Steve Barber mentioned on Lovmo’s site is the one I knew?
August 28th, 2006 at 8:41 am
ponta
Sorry, but I don’t understand what you are saying here.
toadfaceãŒã€ã¾ã¨ã‚‚ã«äººã®ä¸»å¼µã‚’èžã„ã¦ã„ãªã„ã“ã¨ã®è¨¼æ‹ ã§ã™ã‚ˆã€‚
It is the evidence that toadface does not hear opinions of a person directly.
サンジェルマンæ¡ç´„を言ã£ãŸã®ã¯åƒ•ã§ã™ã€‚
It is me that said Saint-Germain treaty.
ãã‚Œã‹ã‚‰å½¼ã®åƒ•ã«å¯¾ã™ã‚‹åè«–ã«å¯¾ã™ã‚‹åè«–ã‚’ã€ã‚‚ã¯ã‚„å…ˆã«æ›¸ã„ã¦ã„ã‚ã‚‹ã¨ã„ã†ã®ã«ã€å½¼ã¯æ°—付ã„ã¦ã¾ã›ã‚“。
Then though I wrote an argument for an argument for me of toadface earlier, he does not notice it.
August 28th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
sqz thanks
Anyway
Legally 1900 Korea edict is not specific enough to establish the title to Dokdo.
Historically Seokdo in 1900 document is most likely to refer to Kwanundo.
And according to Toadface, it is invalid because Korea did not notify it to Japan
September 1st, 2006 at 1:53 am
Although I’m way late on the topic, I though I’d point this out since no one seems to have, out of fondness of memories of my college years that the picture brought back.
In the link provided by toadface, there is a map (2nd from last) with the label “A 1946 map published by Japan’s Geographical Department shows no islands West of Oki Islands.” He seems to use this as proof that the Japanese govenment did not recognize Takeshima even in 1946.
http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/temp17.html
However, this map is not a territorial map. In fact, it’s NOT a map in the real sense of the word. It’s a CATALOGUE OF MAPS published by the geographical department (presently published by the Geographical Survey Institute). See how the blocks have a name of a region printed in them? You order the maps by this name and scale. See this online catalogue available presently.
http://www.jmc.or.jp/map/ichiran/omote/omote.html
In my college days, there was no such thing as online shopping, and we used the same catalogue as the one given by the link in toadface above (except a more updated version), provided free of charge by your local mapseller.
The GSI does not issue separate large-scale maps for isolated islands in the sea, and they are usually provided as insertions into maps of the adjoing area for convenience, and Takeshima is no exception. In my days, you asked your local mapseller to find out which islands were included in which area. Now, it seems the information is provided in the catalogue.
Anyhow, this was a version issued before the San Francisco Treaty, so it really doesn’t prove anything either way.
November 16th, 2006 at 12:12 am
I just read up to the first video and have a question.
It seems that you doubt about the usando as the old name of Dokto because of the totally different natural environments. But it doesn’t seem that not only the Korean side that has the problem of matching the names of island in that area. For example, you mentioned jukdo(chukdo), but did you know that it uses the same chinese letters with Japanese Takeshima? I always wondered, if then Dokdo is originally Takeshima, why there is no bamboos at all but just rocks?
* Jukdo/Takeshima mean “island of bamboo.” But I don’t know how come the both countries have the same name for different islands, which do not really match with their natural environments.
January 17th, 2007 at 9:09 am
katie,
Yes, we are all aware of the Jukto and Takeshima being written using the same Chinese characters, and that the fact is adding to the confusion.
Ulleungdo had lots of bamboos, and that is why the Japanese originally referred to Ullengdo as Takeshima. However, when westerners mapped the islands in the Sea of Japan in the 19th century, they mistakenly mapped 3 islands instead of 2. Thus, the Japanese name shifted towards the Korean peninsula with the Liancourt Rocks being added on the Japanese side. Takeshima became the name for Argonaut Island, which was later found to be non-existent, and thus, the name Takeshima was lost. When Japan incorporated the Liancourt Rocks in 1905, it gave the island the “lost” name of Takeshima.
February 5th, 2007 at 8:44 am
(Japanese translation for Gerry’s post)
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February 21st, 2007 at 6:31 pm
[...] Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 1 [...]
March 3rd, 2007 at 4:47 pm
[...] The Koreans attempt to trace their historical claims all the way back to 512 AD. Their claims are extensive and I have neither the inclination nor time to press into them, although readers should start here with Gerry at Occidentalism’s posts ‘Lies, Half-Truths, & Dokdo Video’. Gerry does a great job at debunking much of the noise. You will find the links to the other parts of that series of posts at the end of that post. [...]
March 20th, 2007 at 6:53 am
[...] Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 1 [...]
April 7th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
[...] Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 1 [...]
April 13th, 2007 at 8:48 am
[...] Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 1 [...]
April 22nd, 2007 at 9:24 am
[...] Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 1 [...]
April 25th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
[...] Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 1 [...]
April 26th, 2007 at 9:24 am
[...] Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 1 [...]
April 29th, 2007 at 8:02 am
[...] Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 1 [...]
May 1st, 2007 at 9:09 am
[...] Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 1 [...]
May 4th, 2007 at 11:38 am
[...] Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 1 [...]
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:49 am
[...] Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 1 [...]
May 25th, 2007 at 4:25 am
[...] Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 1 [...]
August 23rd, 2007 at 8:04 pm
[...] Maeil Sinbo, June 22, 1913 As the above article suggests, even Ulleungdo residents in 1903 had lost track of Usando, though there was a rumor that it was forty to fifty ri northeast of Ulleungdo. By 1913, Koreans on Ulleungdo almost certainly knew of Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo), yet they were still searching for Usando, which tells us that they did not believe Usando to be Liancourt Rocks. Of course, the reason they could not find Usando it that it was just an old, forgotten name for Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo, the “Bamboo Island.” Rhee Syngman’s Land Grab and the Reappearance of Usando When the Japanese were defeated in 1945, Korean President Rhee Syngman saw an opportunity to grab some free Japanese land. He did not only try to claim Tsushima, which had been Japanese territory for untold centuries, he even tried to lay claim to an island that did not exist. When it became apparent that the Americans were not going to accept his claims for Tsushima and a non-existent island, Rhee decided to focus his attention on the Japanese island of Takeshima (Liancourt Rocks), which was officially incorporated into Japanese territory in 1905 and had appeared on Japanese maps for hundreds of years before that. However, Rhee had a problem. Korea had no maps or documents to support a claim on Liancourt Rocks. Therefore, Korea started claiming that the Usando on old Korean maps and in old Korean documents was actually Liancourt Rocks, in spite of the fact that the maps showed Usando to be a neighboring island of Ulleungdo, not Liancourt Rocks. The Koreans must have assumed that the Americans would just accept their claim without asking any questions or doing any research, given that the US had just fought a bitter war with Japan and would supposedly have no reason to support Japanese claims. However, the Americans did ask questions and did do research, and they decided that Liancourt Rocks belonged to Japan. In fact, here is what US Secretary of State Dean Rusk told the Korean ambassor to the US. As regards the island of Dokdo, otherwise known as Takeshima or Liancourt Rocks, this normally uninhabited rock formation was according to our information never treated as part of Korea and, since about 1905, has been under the jurisdiction of the Oki Islands Branch Office of Shimane Prefecture of Japan. The island does not appear to ever before to have been claimed by Korea. Realizing that the 1952 Peace Treaty would not give them Takeshima, Koreans decided to take it by illegally occupying the islets, and they are still there. “When the Treaty of Peace with Japan was being drafted, the Republic of Korea asserted its claims to Dokto but the United States concluded that they remained under Japanese sovereignty and the Island was not included among the Islands that Japan released from its ownership under the Peace Treaty.” Usando, the old name for Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo, is now being used to support a ridiculous Korean territorial claim on Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo/Takeshima). I wonder how long it will take before Korean historians finally get the courage to stand up and tell the truth? Links to More Posts on Takeshima/Dokdo (With Japanese translations) Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 1Â [...]
November 3rd, 2007 at 8:00 pm
This is very interesting theory.
I have a question that I would much like to be answered, if possible.
If the Korean side is wrong in saying that “U-san do” is not the present-day “Dokdo” and in fact it is the present-day “Juk do”, what justifies the Japanese when they call the islet “Takeshima,” which means “Juk do,” which means bamboo. I think this contradicts your arguement.
December 12th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
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July 10th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
[...] If the editors at the Korea Times want to know about Dokdo/Takeshima, they should check out Gerry Bevers’ informational site, Dokdo-or-Takeshima, or check out the extensive Takeshima/Dokdo writings that he was written here, linked below. Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 1 [...]
July 10th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
[...] If the editors at the Korea Times want to know about Dokdo/Takeshima, they should check out Gerry Bevers’ informational site, Dokdo-or-Takeshima, or check out the extensive Takeshima/Dokdo writings that he was written here, linked below. Lies, Half-truths, and Dokdo Video, Part 1 [...]