投稿日20 Jan 2009
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atheism

(29687人の購読者)

コミュニティができてから1年

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Bensch 80ポイント 5日 前[-]

For eight years, I couldn't say it.

This is my President.

greenskin 72ポイント 5日 前[-]

He's not mine, but you guys can be proud :)

CannedMango 47ポイント 5日 前[-]

People downmodding probably don't realize you aren't American.

dudeguymcgee 27ポイント 5日 前[-]

What?!?!? There are other countries on the Earth other than America?!?!? Blasphemy!

wryknow 2ポイント 4日 前[-]

bechus 5ポイント 5日 前[-]

deep_thinker 11ポイント 5日 前[-]

and they have electricity and stuff?

donttaseme 9ポイント 5日 前[-]

reactionary downmads

joeanon 0ポイント 4日 前[-]

Or people downmod posts that aren't entertaining in any particular way.

DAWTSF 1ポイント 4日 前[-]

God made them do it.

bechus 12ポイント 5日 前[-]

I was there and started cheering when he said "non-belivers" and a bunch of other people around me started cheering too. It was the first time i ever felt somewhat accepted as an atheist

desmo 8ポイント 5日 前[-]

I was at Civic Center in San Fran, I cheered as did quite a few around me. My cheer was spontaneous as I am 'very' atheist, and mid cheer thought, shit I am displaying my openness in a large crowd, then others cheered. A small symbol of change I hope.

コメントは削除されました 5日 前[-]

    Fiakyi 7ポイント 5日 前[-]

    wrong, but they should wash their hands after that.

    apollotiger 59ポイント 5日 前[-]

    It’s hilarious, but when I heard that, I thought, “Holy shit, the atheism subreddit is going to be happy!”

    MinervaDreaming 12ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Oh man, that was my first reaction, too. Well, second after "Whoa!"

    Lemm1w1nkz 13ポイント 5日 前[-]

    My first reaction was "Oh.. what? Hhheeeyyy I'm a non believer."

    NotRandyQuaid 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I think that's really sad that was your first reaction.

    mattormeg 29ポイント 5日 前[-]

    This is a small but promising first step for a nation growing out of the infancy of superstition and into the adulthood of reason. I for one am appreciative of his nod.

    CannedMango 35ポイント 5日 前[-]

    His mention of re-embracing science was a good moment too.

    kwen25 10ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I was excited not only at his specific mention of science, but that there was a significant positive reaction audible in the crowd as well.

    mentat 10ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Don't forget his easy mannered yet stinging criticism of the Bush administration.

    mattormeg 4ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Yeah, I caught that too! Good stuff!

    FantomEx 2ポイント 5日 前[-]

    It's a baby step, but one in the right direction.

    Unlucky13 16ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Yay! A president that knows we exist! And doesn't hate us for it!

    supakual 21ポイント 5日 前[-]

    THANK THE LORD!

    Kostoglotov 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    HE'S GONNA HEEAALL-A, OURA NAY-SHUN, AND WE'RE GONNA FEE-EL, ONENA AGAIN!!

    heresybob 3ポイント 5日 前[-]

    droll

    greenskin 15ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Very inclusive speech.

    polarbz 30ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Non-believers can be citizens again.

    pagady 34ポイント 5日 前* [-]

    A nonbeliever guy pretends to be a believer, becomes a president and makes us citizens again. Well played, Sir. Thank you!

    Fiakyi 2ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Finally, I can be called a human being again.

    polarbz 2ポイント 5日 前[-]

    THAT may still be up in the air - we don't really know you that well.

    mutatron 13ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Nothing for Buddhists?

    antipoet 25ポイント 5日 前[-]

    He knew the Buddhists would be okay with not getting a mention. Struggle for non-attachment and all.

    Fiakyi 3ポイント 5日 前[-]

    They asked for nothing.

    mutatron 3ポイント 5日 前* [-]

    A wheel has many spokes, yet its usefulness comes from the hole in the middle. Without its central void, a bowl is but a lump of clay. Nothingness is just another idea, another illusion.

    shamen_uk 1ポイント 4日 前[-]

    It's pretty much covered by the inclusion of "Hindus" and "Non-believers" ;)

    ngl 1ポイント 5日 前* [-]

    Buddhists don't exist. We're inherently empty, remember?

    Oh wait that's zen buddhists.

    sheep1e 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Buddhists are technically covered by "non-believer".

    GuigzForAll 4ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Not all of them, that's for sure.

    Unless I was always grossly misinformed about Buddhism, many of them believe in one or many gods (although they don't usually worship them).

    sheep1e 6ポイント 5日 前* [-]

    There is no variety of Buddhism that centers around a belief in a single, all-powerful god in the Christian, Jewish or Muslim sense as creator of the universe and judge of individuals. The Buddha himself rejected such a notion.

    Of course, it starts getting fuzzy when you consider that Buddhism can have pantheist or panentheist leanings. Nevertheless, Buddhist beliefs in this area qualify them as non-believers in the kind of god that the major monotheistic religions believe in. Buddhists speaking in English usually avoid the word "god" to describe their beliefs in this area, because they're really talking about something different - more like the divine nature of the universe itself, and the creatures in it. [Edit: this is similar to the perspective of atheists who identify as pantheists.]

    Some varieties of Buddhism are neutral about gods, neither endorsing nor rejecting belief in gods. In other sects that specifically include beliefs in various minor gods, the gods are not central to the belief system the way they are with the major monotheistic religions.

    Here's an article about atheism & Buddhism.

    implausibleusername 1ポイント 4日 前[-]

    It's always hard to tell.

    My wife's Chinese and when you talk to the Buddhists in her family, they say they're atheist, and that belief in God is a silly superstition. Then they go to the temple to pray to Buddha to give them stuff.

    sheep1e 1ポイント 4日 前[-]

    Well, that's why they call Buddhism a religion - in practice, it's ultimately as irrational as any of the others.

    Perhaps a better interpretation of "non-believers" in the context of Obama's speech is as "non-believers in the God of Abraham".

    lograh 1ポイント 4日 前[-]

    except for the fact that he included Hindus, who do not believe in the God of Abraham either. Being Buddhist myself, I don't care that he didn't mention Buddhists. I'm not doing this for the fame. :) And really, there are hundreds of religions on this planet. He surely couldn't take the time to mention every one of them. He got the major ones and that's good enough.

    Also, in claiming all Buddhism is irrational based on your small observations of one sect, you are making quite in irrational statement yourself (logical fallacy of over-generalization). There are some sects which are quite rational. You may want to take the time to learn a bit more before making such claims. Perhaps read a book or ask various people their ideas on particular points.

    sheep1e 1ポイント 4日 前[-]

    I said that "in practice" that Buddhism is ultimately as irrational as any of the others. I'm thinking mainly about how people tend to integrate religions into their daily life, and I stand by that. People tend to be superstitious, and those who follow a religion are more likely to integrate their superstition with their religion, as in the example given by implausibleusername.

    However, that's not the only issue, by far. The core of Buddhism is fairly suspect in light of modern psychological knowledge. A common pattern in religions is that arbitrary aspects of the founder's experience become enshrined as canon. In Christianity, the virgin birth is most likely explained by a young woman's denial of having had sex; in Buddhism, Siddhartha's early experience as a prince, shielded from reality, led to the issues of suffering and attachment being so central in Buddhist teaching. It's not rational to accept such a perspective on the human condition without some sort of verification.

    The real reason it "works" is because there are many possible ways to live, and most people don't follow religious rules strictly anyway. Religions are primarily social, cultural and psychological tools, and they've evolved to suit our purposes, like everything else we do. Rationality is not really the primary purpose of the dogma they espouse.

    There are some sects which are quite rational.

    For example? And in what way?

    I'm most familiar with Zen, which I've studied myself, and Theravada, which my mother followed for some time. Zen, of course, is quite deliberately a-rational.

    You may want to take the time to learn a bit more before making such claims. Perhaps read a book or ask various people their ideas on particular points.

    Shogen asked: "Why does the enlightened man not stand on his feet and explain himself?"

    lograh 1ポイント 3日 前[-]

    I'll grant that the way a lot of people tend to incorporate Buddhism in their lives can be quite irrational. When someone hits you (not you, personally, but using it for linguistic convenience) and you say "I must be paying for bad karma from a past life" that is rather irrational and overlooks the fact that you might have just insulted that person. This points to a difference I see between the Buddhism as it is written (from what I've seen written), and the Buddhism as some people practice it.

    My apologies to you for not picking up on that intention of the phrase "in practice". I felt you meant that Buddhism the religion, when practiced in a more 'strict' manner, is just as irrational as many other faiths. This is what I was responding to. I see we were talking about two different things, and there isn't much debate between us, but you had a few direct questions so I'll address them. :)

    Now then, to address your other points (please forgive the lack of Reddit quoting, I don't know how to do that). First, there is significant question if Siddhartha was really a prince, but where he came from is at best a minor point so we dismiss any possible historical inaccuracy as irrelevant. It makes a good fable and a fun story, so we use it as such. Similarly, there has been uncertainty raised around if the Buddha himself ever actually taught the Four Noble Truths. Again we accept that this story may be inaccurate, but the teachings are consistent and work well so we keep them.

    You say it is not rational to keep something without verification. I agree, as do the monks and teachers I have heard talks by and read the writings of. And I try to describe this in the preceding paragraph. We allow there might be inaccuracies in the Tipitaka from an historical perspective, but we keep them anyway because what we care about are the basic teachings which we have verified to be accurate.

    Another example, since you asked for some. I have also personally done verification of the rules of attachment and how it works in one's life. I have lived (as strictly as I could -- I have bills to pay and a job to keep) according to the 8 precepts for a short time (few months) in an attempt to remove some clinging from my life and I can say that there is something to that view of human experience. Again, I was not blindly accepting any teaching, but I saw that the teachings were supposed to be tested and so I did test them. Hypothesis led to testing led to confirmation. And I am not alone in this approach.

    Perhaps my experience with Theravada Buddhism is specific to the one sect the monks trace their lineage through, but every teaching is given with a "try it yourself and see if it works for you" attitude. Rationally engaging the teaching yourself, with a critical mind, is welcomed.

    I have spoken with other people who say they are Theravadan (SP?), but when they describe their practices it seems quite foreign to me and rather irrational. Like mindlessly going to temple and reciting the sounds you are told to repeat for prayer, not knowing the translation of them. The Theravada I have learned is nothing like that. I don't know what your mother's tradition was like, but there are many divergent sects even within the major schools. All are valid, certainly, as there are as many paths to Enlightenment as there are beings. But there can be quite a few differences between those paths.

    I'll not try to defend the example given (and referenced by you) as being rational, as I don't think praying to a dead person is. However, you asked for some rational examples and I hope I have given some.

    Oh, and I should note I am in no way attempting to claim enlightenment or even having attained the smallest steps along the path. I am just beginning in my practice, only formally taking meditation classes and reading the Tipitaka (translated, as I have yet to learn Pali -- it's on my to-do list) for about a year and a half to two years now. I can only speak from my experience, and I admit a lot of my understanding may be incorrect due to its limited scope and immature nature.

    ddxChrist 3ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Buddhism is atheistic, but some Buddhists believe in gods. It seems to be more related to culture than the tenets of Buddhism itself.

    tehbored 3ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Yeah, there's a lot of variety. Some are atheistic, while others are mono or polytheistic.

    distantstar 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    tbh Buddhism as a religion is very atypical for your... well... typical religion :)

    fingers -2ポイント 5日 前[-]

    no love for the queers though

    GuigzForAll 11ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I'm not sure queer is a religion yet.

    fingers 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    commenting about the inclusive nature...well, the non-inclusive nature of the speech.

    GuigzForAll 2ポイント 5日 前[-]

    How is mentioning the very large majority of faiths not inclusive?

    Homosexuals will most likely fit in one of the (non-)religions he named.

    Also, I think it's a good move to not treat homosexuals as a special part of the population. Humans have religion or not and are something else.

    jdcollins 12ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I cheered out-loud at the office.

    ralphwiggum 9ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Uh, yeah, then he goes on to quote scripture? That was annoying.

    snugglekat 27ポイント 5日 前[-]

    baby steps, man, baby steps.

    MikeAwesome 11ポイント 5日 前[-]

    The Bible is a literary masterpiece.

    sheep1e 6ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Er, some little bits of it, maybe. A sort of "million monkeys" approach to literature.

    entropyfu 6ポイント 5日 前[-]

    jewish fairy tales ftw

    leevancleef 5ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Yes. "As scripture says, it is time to put away childish things."

    I'm okay with that one, and although I'm positive it wasn't meant like this, decided to take it ironically.

    Bensch 3ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Agreed, but it's inclusive. I think I don't mind it because I suspect he's not actually religious - I think it's calculated to make him fit in.

    slartibartfas 3ポイント 5日 前[-]

    me too, however I don't think he is so sinister about it, I think he can see the importance of it as a communication tool. For a lot of people its a language people can understand.

    mitchwells 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I'm not sure how he could sit through 20 years of sermons and not be religious. We do know he loved his mom dearly, and she was an atheist. So that's something.

    JesseOnReddit3 7ポイント 5日 前[-]

    You have to go to church to survive as an aspiring black politician in Chicago.

    antipoet 2ポイント 5日 前[-]

    You know, aside from the superstition, there are some valuable things a person can learn from the religions of the world.

    mitchwells 4ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I'm all in favor of studying religious literature as literature. I know it enhances my understanding of my culture.

    Bensch 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    It is something. I don't know what to think, but as long as it stays out of his politics - which it seems to have - I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    snugglekat 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    baby steps, man, baby steps.

    brodiemr 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Yup, I voted right. Proud day for America.

    asfaqqq 3ポイント 5日 前[-]

    so is "non-believers" the politically correct term for atheists now?

    twhichy 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I kind of like it only because it is a generic way to say "cynic".

    Sharpie182 2ポイント 5日 前[-]

    where can I see the speech? I missed it.

    mentat 4ポイント 5日 前[-]

    withloveandsqualor 2ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Thank you, Obama!

    fingers 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Offended, actually. I believe in things...like charity and love. I don't believe in god. If you are going to say Hindus, Jews, and Christians...why not say Atheists?

    AusIV 6ポイント 5日 前[-]

    That was my first reaction, but then you've left out agnostics and other non-affiliated types. I generally have a negative connotation with the term 'non-believers', but in this case I think it was meant to be inclusive.

    fingers 2ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I know.

    mattymomostl 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    "For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus — and non-believers. We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth; and because we have tasted the bitter swill of civil war and segregation, and emerged from that dark chapter stronger and more united, we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; that as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself; and that America must play its role in ushering in a new era of peace. "

    jredbone 0ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I hate this nonbelievers bullshit, you have to believe in something or else you have absolutely no thought. I believe there is no god.

    I also believe that the children are our future, teach them well and let them lead the way.

    Dooley 9ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I believe that the children are idiots, they dont want to learn, and our future is fucked... though its not as catchy set to music.

    mitchwells 8ポイント 5日 前* [-]

    I believe old people are the future. Our population is aging, and they're the ones that bother to vote.

    JesseOnReddit3 6ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I believe that the past is the future. I have no justification for this.

    antipoet -1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Well, if we look to the good Rev. Stephen Hawking, we could probably find some way to justify it in his good book.

    deep_thinker 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I hope you have none to screw up all by yerself.

    Dooley 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    you have no idea, i got about 150 of the lil bastards!

    CannedMango 6ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Fair enough, but it's a more inclusive term than "Athiests". There are many people who don't believe in god or any of the modern religions without being an Athiest per sey.

    srika 7ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Fair enough, but it's a more inclusive term than "Athiests".

    Exactly. I bet any atheist would fall under the category "non-believers". I see no controversy here. He is probably the first fucking president to say that, and that is a start.

    mutatron 5ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I call myself a non-believer when I'm talking about religions, but an atheist when I'm talking about gods. To me there's a clear distinction between religionism and theism.

    mitchwells 5ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I like dis-believer. For what ever that's worth.

    sheep1e 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Being pedantic, non-believer applies better to gods than religions.

    For religions, something like "non-follower" might make sense.

    jredbone 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    exactly, i believe religions exist. But not god, therefore, just plain atheist.

    cyrano111 3ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I don't "believe there is no god" any more than I "believe there is no santa" or "believe I am typing a comment" or "believe I didn't have breakfast this morning". Of course it would be possible to insert that word into each of those sentences and defend that statement as plausible, but leaving it out of each captures much more accurately the world and my state of mind.

    mutatron 4ポイント 5日 前[-]

    In regular speech, being a non-believer just means you don't believe in any religion. What else you believe is outside the purvey of the word.

    jredbone 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I understand, that its the all-inclusive way of saying it and I was playing devil's advocate a little in my comment. However, it sounds a little condescending to me, not from the mouth of Obama, I give him all the credit in the world. I just mean in general. Considering that many people associate religion with morality and goodness, I feel that the word nonbelievers emits us from having those traits, in their eyes.

    But little by little I guess.

    logicalnoise 6ポイント 5日 前[-]

    wait wait wait wait....the english language is flawed?

    jredbone 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    not the language, just those that speak it, myself included.

    fingers -1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Offended, actually. I believe in things...like charity and love. I don't believe in god. If you are going to say Hindus, Jews, and Christians...why not say Atheists?

    repost, sorry

    SocialSoundSystem 0ポイント 4日 前[-]

    Why couldn't he say "atheists?" To call us nonbelievers frames the issue in a whole different light... Sounds more like "infidels" or bad guys... As opposed to rational individuals

    faassen 4ポイント 4日 前[-]

    If you said 'atheists' you'd have excluded people who call themselves agnostics, freethinkers and non-believers. It's the more inclusive term.

    SocialSoundSystem 1ポイント 4日 前[-]

    True true... I agree. I guess "non-believer" automatically takes a negative connotation from history and movies.

    SocialSoundSystem 1ポイント 4日 前[-]

    Ok, ok. I got you. Maybe it's the negative connotation that has been associated through history and movies for "non-believers"

    SocialSoundSystem 1ポイント 4日 前[-]

    Ok, ok. I got you. Maybe it's the negative connotation that has been associated through history and movies for "non-believers"

    rensyphon -1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    I know, I know. It was retarded, huh?

    RonaldFuckingPaul 1ポイント 5日 前[-]

    big time

    Stormwatch36 -2ポイント 5日 前[-]

    Atheism isn't a belief system or a religion what the fuck was he doing grouping it in with them. God dammit Obama.