The Linguist - Learn English, Learn Languages Online

What about pronunciation

I had a question on pronunciation in a comment to the previous post. Here is what I said with a few more comments.

I do not think it is important to focus on pronunciation until you have done a lot of listening. I mean hundred of hours, often listening repeatedly. If you start pronouncing after your brain is really used to the language, you will do better. You cannot pronounce what you cannot hear.

Much of the effort to get early level learners to learn pronunciation is a waste of time in my view, and possible harmful. Listen to American, Canadian, British or whatever English you want. When you are ready to work on pronunciation choose one form of the language, and one voice that you like and listen over and over, imitating. Till then don't worry about it.

People worry too much about pronunciation. It is far more important to speak well, using natural phrasing and using words correctly. I do not mean getting the odd article or preposition wrong in English, or getting the odd gender, or agreement, or case wrong in some languages. I mean having words and phrases to use. That is what matters.

To work on pronunciation, first listen a lot. Listen to someone you like listening to. Listen over and over to imitate the rhythm of the person you want to sound like. Or  listen to many people, and start pronouncing to yourself, imitating. You will get as close to that model as you are meant to. After that don't worry about it.

I have found that detailed instructions on where to put your tongue and how to open your mouth are usually not that helpful. Equally unhelpful is the international phonetic alphabet (IPA), which I have never learned. Either the sound exists in my language, in which case I pick it up fairly quickly, or the sound does not  exist in my language, in which case it will take longer. In either case the strange symbols of the IPA are, to me at least, unnecessary.

Pronunciation and sports

I just came back from cross-country skiing. I was trying to improve the rhythm of my stride. No amount of thinking of the various bits of instruction or advice I have received really helped. In fact I was getting more awkward just by trying to deliberately move in a certain way.

Along came a group of 4 excellent skiers. I just followed in their wake, imitating their rhythm. Of course, I could not keep up with them for too long, but I got the rhythm. I skied better the rest of the day.

Pronunciation is like that. Emulate something you want to emulate. Just try to get the flow. Do not worry too much about the technical details.

Exchanging lists in LingQ - Dimitriy's list

In a previous post Dimitriy provided a list of English words that he had saved which I have recorded here. I am happy to do so since he recorded my Russian word list in Russian.

As we do more of this we may find that it is better if the list contains edited phrases, and if the phrases have been selected from the examples, to be as good as they can be. Just doing this preparatory work is useful in remembering the words and phrases. As we go forward in this ,we could also name these lists. They could be from a particular content item, or from a Tag list.

I think these recorded lists are most useful for pronunciation, and may not be so practical for learning vocabulary since they can be a little labour intensive. I await comments.

An operation on your tongue to fix your pronunciation

In China, according to this article,from the BBC, people in China are having an operation to improve their English pronunciation. This only shows the gullibility of people and their desire to look for short cuts.

Accent reduction again

Here is the podcast

I posted earlier on the issue of accent reduction. I was quoting an ESL teacher who felt that accents represented someone's "cultural identity" and should not concern us. Only clarity should concern us. That same teacher also felt that it was OK to write "wanna" instead of "want to." What amazes me is the most ESL teachers on this Forum agreed with him.

Well I must say I do not agree. When I hear a non-native speaker speak English with only a slight accent, I am impressed favourably. Not everyone can do this, of course. And those who cannot, should not worry about it. However, it is dishonest to say that it does not create a favourable impression.

A Mexican or Chinese or Italian person hearing an English speaker speak their language with little accent will probably be favourably impressed. This impression may not last long if the the person has a disagreeable personality. By the same token a person with a heavy accent can easily overcome this initial impression if he or she has other very good qualities. But the fact remains that it can make a difference, and students are best advised to work on pronunciation.

If you are native speaker with a regional accent that is different. However, Indian accents, for example, (from India and Pakistan),  are not native and can be difficult to understand. These people are not native speakers. They are native speakers of Hindi or Urdu or Panjabi, and for them to pronounce in a way that is closer to one or another native English accent does not take away from their cultural identity.

That is different from an Australian, West Indian or even regional English accent which may be difficult to understand but is truly part of the speakers culture.

As for writing "wanna" instead of "want to", I do not like it. If we combine both
permissive"ideas, that a, let's say, Mexican accent should not be changed, and that we should write the way we speak, we will soon write,

"Hey, este, my freng, don joo guan to spik Engliss wis me suntyne."

I doubt if that would be welcome in English or any other language.

A non-native accent is good!

Recently on a forum for teachers of English as a foreign or second language, one person had this to say about accents.


Why would you want to reduce accent? Accent is good. It reflects differences in culture, background etc. Why would anyone want all English speakers to sound like people of Mexican ancestry?  I understand that pretty soon, the majority of Americans will be of Hispanic origin. However, we should still preserve the Midwest accent, the New York/New Jersey accent, the Bostonian accent, the Southern accent and all other accents. As long as people can understand each other, it is good. If some cannot understand accents beyond a very restricted region, we should work on training them to understand a multitude of accents as well as other languages.

and this

 

Proper enunciation and accent reduction are different things. The former relates to intelligibility, the later refers to elimination of cultural traits.  Talking about accent reduction gives students the idea that their cultural group doesn't' speak properly.

I do not agree and had the following to say.

Very few language learners do not want to emulate the pronunciation of some native speaker group. That is the model, whether it is achieved or not. Very few native speakers of a language do not react more positively, at least initially, to a person speaking in a familiar or native accent, even though in time this initial impression can be overcome.

So it is not necessarily helpful to pretend that learners do not want to reduce their accent nor that it is unimportant. It is useful to tell learners that they should not be unduly preoccupied about their accent, but to suggest that it does not matter is not, in my view, a good idea.

One of the best ways to reduce an accent is to listen repeatedly to a limited amount of content. Repeating along, with an emphasis on rhythm and intonation is particularly helpful. It can also be helpful to memorize short paragraphs and repeat them often.And of course it is important to relax and not worry about one's accent even as we try to improve.

I am not American, but If and when people with Hispanic ancestry become the majority in the US, most of them will likely speak English with the same accent as their neighbours and fellow citizens of other different ancestries.

I find that this politically correct attitude "your accent is part of your culture" is patronizing towards new citizens of the United States who are trying to speak like everyone else. I know that I make mistakes of grammar and of pronunciation when I speak another language. I does not bother me. However, I do not pretend that my incorrect way of speaking is just " a cultural trait". To speak like a native is still the ideal, even though I cannot achieve it. Speaking the way I do is not a "cultural trait".  I do not believe that those people who speak another language well are less able to represent their own culture. I believe this is just another example of politically correct "feel good" nonsense.

Interestingly the vast majority of English teachers responded to this original post by strongly agreeing. No wonder the immigrants do so poorly.

Pronunciation-the example of Stephane Dion

Here is the podcast.

I am always intrigued by the question of pronunciation. Why do some people pronounce a second language better than others. I notice for example that foreign athletes playing in North America often do really well whereas more intellectual types like professors often do poorly.

One example of the latter is Stephane Dion, the leader of the opposition Liberal Party in Canada. He was recently interviewed on television on the subject of recent cabinet shuffle by the ruling Conservative Party. This was the third change in the line up of ministers that the Conservatives had done. He began his interview by saying that "dis is de tird time the government has changed.."

Well "turd" is not a nice word in English. "Th" is not a difficult sound to make, just stick your tongue between your teeth and blow air. I know that Dion would like to be Prime Minister one day. He has been in Canadian politics for 15 years. He has private language coaches. How can he say "tird?"

I am sure he can make the "th" sound. But when he goes to speak he says "tird". Pretty damaging for him. I am sure the majority of English Canadians who saw him on television immediately laughed. Not good for a politician. Why can't he change?  Or, better still, how can he change?

I believe he needs to create some new neural networks in his brain so that when he goes to say certain words he will get them right. I think that something like daily listening to and repeating from memory certain paragraphs, either  with a lot of "th" in them, or more general, like our own "Pronunciation -read slowly and read at normal speed" would help. I am talking about hundreds of repetitions.

What do others think?

" L" and "R"

Here is the podcast of the post.  Here are the "l" and "r" sounds to repeat.

This goes out to Tamaki first of all, and to all Japanese learners who have trouble with "l" and "r" second of all, and finally to all learners who struggle with certain sounds, regardless of their native language.

There are all kinds of theories in social studies and even in science that achieve the status of conventional wisdom based on some study somewhere, only to be "disproved" ten years later. One popular theory is that a child has to hear certain sounds in childhood in order to be able to hear them later in life, and then to reproduce them. A corollary is that people cannot pronounce sounds in a new language because they do not hear them. I do not believe this to be true.

I believe it is good to be exposed to a wide variety of sounds in childhood. I think it is a great idea to expose young children to many languages before the age of 7, but without grammar rules. A junior LingQ would be a good way to go. However, even if the child does not have that exposure, adults can learn to pronounce new sounds. I have seen it all the time.

I do not believe that Japanese cannot make the "l" and "r" distinction because they did not hear it as a child. They have less trouble with "th" which they also do not hear as a child. In foreign languages we usually know what sound is being spoken from the context. We do not need to hear it.

Nevertheless it is true that certain sounds are difficult for speakers of certain languages, and it has to do with the fact that the sound does not exist in their language. But this can be overcome with a combination of will and practice. And if a trace of this difficulty remains in one's accent it does not really matter.

Here are some sounds that I would like Japanese learners to repeat, without worrying about what the words mean. Some of these words mean nothing. If you are Japanese, determine ahead of time that you are going to create the necessary neural networks in your brain to be able to say these sounds correctly. Want it! Will it!

Then listen to these sounds read slowly and repeat them slowly. Download this and do it over and over, for as long as it takes. Tell me if your "l" and "r" improve.

Further on accents

Here is a podcast on this subject

Wow! We got a lot of comments on this subject. Let me comment on the comments.

Lorean. What constitutes a pleasant accent is quite subjective. It is true that certain accents may seem more generally charming than others. I think that the charm or lack of charm of an accent is a superficial quality that is soon forgotten if the person speaks well and has interesting things to say.

Edwin. Yes many non-native speakers do not like hearing their own accent. I believe the General American Accent or Canadian accent is easier to imitate than the various British accents. In many cases fluent non-native speakers of English have their own accent which is neither on nor the other but borrows from whomever they were last listening to.

Chris: There are no guidelines. Please create content for us. I believe you are a German speaker. We want Swiss accents, Bavarian accents, Austrian accents, Schwabish accents, whatever. But we do not want dialects as German. We may do dialects, like Schwitzer Dutch, but then we identify that as another language. So I am looking forward to your content.

Ak. You write very very well. If there are times when you are not understood and asked to repeat something, write down what phrase or words were involved. See if you can find out what sounds or combinations of sounds are causing trouble.

I would not recommend speeding up. Slower is better.

Remember that 90-95% is really very good. Try not to be a perfectionist. Relax, enjoy your success at the language and you will continue to improve.

Art, in our content Resumes, is a native speaker.

By the way Ak, what is your native language and when can we expect some content from you?

Anas: Your written English is awesome. Stay away from teachers and rely on your initiative and own powers of discovery of the language.

Have we given you a Beta account in LingQ. If not please send an email to customerservice at thelinguist.com and ask for a Beta account and provide your username and password. (This offer is good for anyone reading this)  (We would hope to get some Arabic content from you one day, audio and e-text).

As to the issue of confidence, it is easy for me to say, just relax. That is easier said than done. However, build up your listening and reading ability. Build up your vocabulary. Read in the culture. This will all increase your sense of confidence.

Then remember that perfection is not the goal. If you are speaking in English to  native speakers, you are already one step ahead of them. You are speaking in their language whereas they cannot speak yours (probably). Pat yourself on the back. enjoy the sense of what you have already achieved. If you encounter moments where you do not understand or cannot express yourself, or the native speaker says "What?", do not worry. Note what the problem was and work on it later.

Learn to separate your study activities form the times when you are just communicating. Communicating in another language is not a test, it is game. Try to enjoy it. And work on constant improvement through enjoyment, not perfection.

Max: I agree with you on the need to work on rhythm. We have discussed this before. By the way, do you want to Beta test LingQ. We do not have Chinese yet, but you can work on European languages for now. We would also be interested in some Swedish content from you.

Imitate English phrases. Don't learn English grammar

Here is the podcast.

Develop the habit of imitating and do not study grammar! You will learn English faster! I will follow up, here, on the previous post which referred to mirror neurons, and discuss how to use this phenomenon when you learn English on The Linguist system. In the example of my previous post, I was able to react instantly to the driver in front of me. I was able to anticipate the intentions of the driver in front of me without thinking. My neurons took over. I believe it was the mirror neurons. The instructions on what to do in that situation did not come from a "grammar book" or a driving instruction manual. It is the same in language learning. We need exposure to the language. Listening and reading are key to creating familiarity with the language, and especially in building up vocabulary. Formalized output exercizes that are found in grammar or text books are not necessary and do not work on our imitative ability. ( See my previous post on the inability of output to improve usage accuracy for a group of English learners in Japan). Instead, repetitive reciting of phrases is, I am convinced, the most effective and easiest way to practice output in the language whenever we want. It is not enough to observe someone driving, although it helps a lot. It is important to also drive oneself, in order to notice what is happening. I believe that in the case of language learning, it is not enough just to listen and read, although this should be our main activity since it is enjoyable (creating flow). It is not necessary to study grammar or answer grammar questions, since these do not work very well, and are stressful. It is, on the other hand, most useful to practice repeating a phrase, at least 5 times each time, immediately after hearing it. This can be done by just stopping the iPod from time to time and repeating the last phrase. Do this with an emphasis on the rhythm and intonation of the language, rather than on remembering the words. This in no way this makes reading and listening and the deliberate and efficient learning of vocabulary less important. It just improves your ability to perceive, observe, hear, notice and eventually imitate another language.

Pronunciation exercise # 5

Here you can practice mimicking a sound that causes people of all language groups difficulty in English.

Pronunciation exercise # 4

Here is a pronunciation exercise for Italians and Slavs and all those people who think that booked, looked, and hooked should rhyme with crooked.

Mimicking English sounds

Here you can listen to me explain a little more about mimicking English sounds. It is clear that people who have studied English for many years have already decided in their minds how English words should be pronounced. When they listen to English with the intention of mimicking, they really just repeat the pronunciation of the word that they are used to using. How can we break this habit? I think a lot of listening is key. Focusing on certain troublesome sounds can help. That is why I have done two more short recordings here, one for Yuka and Japanese speakers and one for Humberto and Spanish speakers. Everyone is welcome to use them but I just appreciated Yuka and Humberto giving me feedback to my original post.

Again just to clarify, the nonsense recordings are there to provide the learner with something to warm up on. When listening to nonsense you have to mimic. Practice mimicking by listening to nonsense and then listen to the real English pronunciation jingles, and make sure you mimic. Keep doing it daily. Let me know if it has any effect. Mimic and do not worry about listening to yourself. Do not let your present pronunciation influence you. Work at imitating what you hear, not what you think it should be. Just assume you sound all right.  Work hard on mimicking. Have fun with it. Pretend you are an actor.

Linguist members can ask me or their tutors for help on specific sounds. Remember June we will have our Pronunciation Derby! Start getting into mimicking shape!

English pronunciation

One reason people have trouble with English pronunciation is that they read it as if it were their own language. The writing influences their pronunciation. One advantage of an approach like Pimsleur is that the learner does not read but is forced to mimic what he or she hears. Most English speakers have already formed their own version of English pronunciation based on a variety of factors, including how it is written. It is therefore often difficult for them to really mimic English. I talk about the influence of reading on pronunciation here and then offer some nonsense jingles for people to mimic. I want learners to really go all out at making fun of English pronunciation, mimicking nonsense words as a means of improving their ability to mimic real English. I look forward to comments.

Pronunciation exercises # 3

This exercise is for consonant clusters. I think that this is a problem in English pronunciation for Chinese speakers but also affects others including, in particular, Spanish speakers.This will be difficult at first. Try to listen and repeat. If you are a Linguist member you will soon see the whole text of there exercises in the Linguist Library.

English pronunciation exercises # 2

This is an English pronunciation exercise for Japanese speakers. Guess which sound it focuses on! More will available at The Linguist Library with transcripts. The purpose of these exercises is to overwork the brain circuitry and train the muscles of the mouth to get more comfortable at difficult sounds. Treat these like any kind of physical exercise. You have to do it over and over for it to have an effect.

English pronunciation exercises #1

I am going to post a few English pronunciation exercises. There are many more with transcripts at The Linguist. This first one concerns the long and short "i" sound in English.

English pronunciation

I would like to talk a little about the difficulties of English pronunciation. I believe that learning to pronounce is a matter of training. Most people can make most sounds, but when they speak, their native language brain takes over. To learn to pronounce English better it is necessary to train a new set of circuits in the brain. To help in this process I am going to record some pronunciation exercises. I would be interested in hearing a reaction.

Members of The Linguist will soon be able to find these pronunciation exercises in The Linguist Library, where they will be able to read them, and save key words and phrases to their databases. Members of The Linguist can also send me recordings of themselves reading these texts if they want and I will suggest which sounds they should concentrate on in our PRONOUNCE secton. More to come. I am being called to dinner by my wife!