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I've read in a lot of places that steel frames just have "soul" and am not sure what to make of it. I like my aluminum bikes, and as far as I know, steel is just heavier aluminum.
In my quest to figure out what kind of road bike I want, weight seems to be steel's only disadvantage that I hear about. But I never hear anything about its advantages; it's like the publishers just assume that everybody knows. Or something.
What are the advantages of a steel frame that its "soul" comes from?
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Well, if you want to discuss "soul" as in some metaphysical nature then you might want to check out this recent thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=93896). As far as steel vs aluminum properties go, steel has some advantages as a metal in that it has a fatigue limit whereas aluminum does not, it has a higher yield and UTS and is more easily repairable. These are gross generalisations however. Some disadvantages to steel include rusting (although that can be prevented by coating and care) and generally higher weight penalty. Now material alone does not a bike make and one has to consider the design and manufacturing processes that went into the production. In the bike industry, steel alloys are a fairly mature technology so by and large, there's a lot of experience behind a well crafted steel bike that can result in a frame with a longer lifespan. With aluminum, CF and other newer materials this maturity has yet to be gained thus confidence in them about their lifespan is usually less.
....
What are the advantages of a steel frame that its "soul" comes from?
Rust.
My bike (carbon and aluminum) is physical and mechanical. Spirit and soul come into play only when the power source is applied.
Depending on how the thing is built (tubes, angles, materials) steel can offer a very quiet, subtle ride. However, there are harsh steel rides just like there are harsh aluminum rides. Ditto the opposite, the spectrum is quite broad for both. And, depending on how it's built, aluminum can offer the same thing.
Weight doesn't have to be a penalty either - I ride a 17 pound steel bike, 2 lbs. less than one of my aluminum bikes. I also ride a 16 pound aluminum bike that is 4 pounds less than my lugged steel bikes.
Truth is, many people who believe that one material is vastly superior to another have simply not ridden enough high quality bikes.
The only universal truth when it comes to materials is that there are no universal truths.
Well, if you read the bible like all good Christians should, you'll know that God and Jesus Christ our Saviour™ both ride steel, and as a result have imparted the material when fabricated into a bicycle frame with a soul - much like you and I have.
Conversely, other materials are 'souless' and therefore the tool of the Devil and must be destroyed.
Rust.
Amen to that! Rust adds character (until your frame snaps in two on a climb...but I guess that adds character to your body)!
I've read in a lot of places that steel frames just have "soul" and am not sure what to make of it. I like my aluminum bikes, and as far as I know, steel is just heavier aluminum.
In my quest to figure out what kind of road bike I want, weight seems to be steel's only disadvantage that I hear about. But I never hear anything about its advantages; it's like the publishers just assume that everybody knows. Or something.
What are the advantages of a steel frame that its "soul" comes from?
You're an audiophile so I'll provide the following SAT style analogy:
steel is to vacuum tubes as aluminum is to transitors
Not all steel is heavier than aluminum.
Soul is something bestowed onto something by some greater force. In and of its self a bicycle can have no soul. Any bicycle can be given soul. A Pacific cycle can have soul even if there are a million just like it.
For example, that 60 dollar bicycle has soul when it is found on Christmas eve by it's proud new owner. It has soul when it's taken on it's first ride and it it has all together a differnt kind of soul when it is forgotten about and left in the yard to rust.
A Steel bike can be given soul. If it's owner belives that the old time secrets of lugs and tubes can create a ride unlike that of a mass produced carbon wrapped technological miracle.
Hehe... Halfspeed,
that is a good analogy. I think style might be a better word than
soul.
For me, the very definition of motorcycle is a Triumph 650, one of the ones from the Sixties. It was light, almost felt like you were throwing a bike around. It had that classic motorcycle sound, only a couple motorcycles since have approached the beauty of that sound. One was the original Honda 750, God what a beautiful noise that made. That Triumph may be slower, it may not handle as well, as the newer ones. But to me, it is the very defintion of what a motorcycle is, or should be. Everything else is measured against it, and falls short to one degree or another.
A good steel bike frame makes me feel the same way. The supple ride, the solid handling (long frame), all the little things add up to what I want a bike to be,.
There's something about a steel frame when you're just flying along on flats and rollers that seems somehow unrelenting, like you have more momentum or something. It's not an effect of weight, I think it's just from the relative smoothness of the ride - you almost have the feeling each pedal stroke lasts longer. (Not a fact, just how it feels to me).
I'm definitely more "tired" after a long ride on aluminum. On the flipside, though, there's something about aluminum that is so responsive and agile that I've come to prefer it, and it really excels on hills and corners, which is the majority of what I ride here.
It's almost like the difference between the cruising, powerful speed of say a Jaguar (steel), vs the darty, quickness of a Porsche (aluminum) if that makes sense that at all . . .
You're an audiophile so I'll provide the following SAT style analogy:
steel is to vacuum tubes as aluminum is to transitors
I'll take that even further
Steel is to vinyl as Aluminium is to CDs
(See I'm not just retrogrouchy about bikes!)
Bottlehead Marty
It is sort of like a classic car compared to a more modern design. It is really just a perception thing.
BTW, Ti rides smooth with no rust.
Arrgghh!,
there's no esacaping the invasion of the Bottleheads! Run! Run for your life! :roflmao:
hey whats wrong with a good 2A3?
I liked the Norton 750, buddy of mine had the 650
Bonneville nice bikes. . .
Marty
Hard to answer. The soul is in the ride quality I would say.
I'll take that even further
Steel is to vinyl as Aluminium is to CDs
(See I'm not just retrogrouchy about bikes!)
Bottlehead Marty
almost
steel=vinyl
aluminum=cassette tape
carbon=cd
titanium=front row seat at the philharmonic
Where does reel-to-reel fit in?
Lotek,
just pulling your chain. I grew up with tubes, I can remember when there were NO transistors. I'm sure your rig sounds great, I just don't romanticise tubes. Also, my stereo also works as the sound for my home theater, and She Who Must Be Obeyed said to hide the gear, so it's all in a closet (except the speakers). Not a good place for tubes even if I was so inclined.
I've read in a lot of places that steel frames just have "soul" and am not sure what to make of it. I like my aluminum bikes, and as far as I know, steel is just heavier aluminum.
In my quest to figure out what kind of road bike I want, weight seems to be steel's only disadvantage that I hear about. But I never hear anything about its advantages; it's like the publishers just assume that everybody knows. Or something.
What are the advantages of a steel frame that its "soul" comes from?
A load of BS?
I'll take that even further
Steel is to vinyl as Aluminium is to CDs
(See I'm not just retrogrouchy about bikes!)
Bottlehead Marty
Well, it's really the same analogy and, curiously, you get the same kind of arguments. You take barely perceptible differences, wrap them in a collection of foklore, magic and BS designed to justify prejudices far more strongly felt than objectively justifiable.
A lot of this really comes down to fetishism. (An inanimate object with soul?)
BTW, I think tubes are nice and analog is great, but vinyl is crap. Sorry. :)
There's something about a steel frame when you're just flying along on flats and rollers that seems somehow unrelenting, like you have more momentum or something. It's not an effect of weight, I think it's just from the relative smoothness of the ride - you almost have the feeling each pedal stroke lasts longer. (Not a fact, just how it feels to me).
I'm definitely more "tired" after a long ride on aluminum. On the flipside, though, there's something about aluminum that is so responsive and agile that I've come to prefer it, and it really excels on hills and corners, which is the majority of what I ride here.
It's almost like the difference between the cruising, powerful speed of say a Jaguar (steel), vs the darty, quickness of a Porsche (aluminum) if that makes sense that at all . . .
So you're saying that steel is over-price, unreliable, and really made by a sub-par company and aluminum is overpriced but will help you get hot women???
I kid, I kid.
:D
I've read in a lot of places that steel frames just have "soul" and am not sure what to make of it. I like my aluminum bikes, and as far as I know, steel is just heavier aluminum.
In my quest to figure out what kind of road bike I want, weight seems to be steel's only disadvantage that I hear about. But I never hear anything about its advantages; it's like the publishers just assume that everybody knows. Or something.
What are the advantages of a steel frame that its "soul" comes from?
They have a kick.
Recoil, tensile flex.
I'll take that even further
Steel is to vinyl as Aluminium is to CDs
(See I'm not just retrogrouchy about bikes!)
Bottlehead Marty
Carbon is to SACD as Titanium is to DVDA
I'll take that even further
Steel is to vinyl as Aluminium is to CDs
(See I'm not just retrogrouchy about bikes!)
Bottlehead Marty
Carbon Fiber=MP3 ?
"Soul" is something that is not understood or appreciated until cycling has been a way of life for many, many decades. The advantages of steel require seeing things through the "soul." Those that don't understand are blind and no teaching will suffice. Some will accept on faith and some will see it as bull. Choose your own camp.
Riding steel is like driving a 1967 VW bug or a 1970 Internation. They dont have the most modern technology, dont ride the best, are not the highest performance vehicles......but dammit they just have a cool factor. Carbon and other hi tech stuff is great, awesome even, but its a bit like wearing a "Van Douche" trucker hat to me.
lol ... well I really didn't want to open the metaphysical can of worms with the word "soul" used in the same sentence as "bicycle" .. but I guess it's too late for that.
What I meant was what are the advantages/disadvantages between the way a STEEL frame rides and the way an ALUMINUM frame rides?
Somebody said something about how steel just has a kick, I think "tensile flex" were the words used. Another said that steel is good for going in straight lines whereas aluminum and carbon fiber handle better on hills and turns. My case is that I ride almost exclusively on sidewalks go I move in a straight line 85% of the time, and that makes me want steel, and also the little crease-bumps on the sidewalk get kind of annoying after hours of riding so the "tensile flex" also makes me want steel.
Keep giving input .. this is interesting ... lol
Thanks in advance
:rolleyes:
Will
It's all good; just some better. I've got short, stiff steel frames that I don't like to ride for more than 20 miles ('72 & '74 Carlton & Raleigh "fastback" Pros), and other steel frames that are comfy all day ('70 & '74 Raleigh Internationals). I've got Ti frames that feel like wet noodles, but comfy all day ('75 & '78 Speedwell TitaLite - 3.5 pounds WITH fork!). I've got comfy aluminum frames ('85 ALAN).
To generalize by saying that steel is smooth and springy, or aluminum is harsh is plain nonsense. Any commonly used frame material can be turned into whatever the builder wants. Lots of people want something as stiff and light as possible. Some want want that "lively" ride. You need to figure out what you prefer to ride, and find the appropriate frame. Pretty simple.
Oh, but I am biased toward the "soul" of steel. While I like a lively, comfortable ride, I also prefer the look of beautiful lugs or fillet brazed smoothness over a clean TIG weld. I like the form of artful sculpture much more that the robot-built "function only" look. Yes, you may say that form follows function, but we'd be hatin' life without art.
you know, there are those of us who believe that cd, mp3
and the whole perfect sound forever isn't. SACD does sound
pretty good.
I agree its a fetish, ritualistic kind of thing with vinyl.
Similiar to cleaning chain tweaking bike, gluing tubulars
(hmmm I see a pattern here, might be bikepsych time).
I do listen to CD quite a bit.
I like old campy equiptment on steel frames (doesn't
even have to be fancy lugged or OLD),
Vinyl played through a tubed system
why? I don't know. just feels better to me.
Marty
I do listen to CD quite a bit.
I like old campy equiptment on steel frames (doesn't
even have to be fancy lugged or OLD),
Vinyl played through a tubed system
why? I don't know. just feels better to me.
Marty
Marty my friend, it's an old age thing... Maybe what we grew up with? Still, I remember drooling at the site of a first generation Super Record equipped Teledyne Titan...in 1976. Man, what a cool bike!
Depending on how the thing is built (tubes, angles, materials) steel can offer a very quiet, subtle ride. However, there are harsh steel rides just like there are harsh aluminum rides. Ditto the opposite, the spectrum is quite broad for both. And, depending on how it's built, aluminum can offer the same thing.
Weight doesn't have to be a penalty either - I ride a 17 pound steel bike, 2 lbs. less than one of my aluminum bikes. I also ride a 16 pound aluminum bike that is 4 pounds less than my lugged steel bikes.
Truth is, many people who believe that one material is vastly superior to another have simply not ridden enough high quality bikes.
The only universal truth when it comes to materials is that there are no universal truths.
Well said.
Carbon Fiber=MP3 ?
No, No, NO.
mp3=shoddily built aluminum walmart type frame with 'Aluminum' decals all over it and weighs 10lbs
Al
My case is that I ride almost exclusively on sidewalks go I move in a straight line 85% of the time, and that makes me want steel, and also the little crease-bumps on the sidewalk get kind of annoying after hours of riding so the "tensile flex" also makes me want steel.
Well, and I mean this in the most friendly way possible--you don't really need to worry about your bike having soul, because riding on sidewalks is the shortest route to hell.
:roflmao: Well, and I mean this in the most friendly way possible--you don't really need to worry about your bike having soul, because riding on sidewalks is the shortest route to hell. :roflmao:
Well, it's really the same analogy and, curiously, you get the same kind of arguments. You take barely perceptible differences, wrap them in a collection of foklore, magic and BS designed to justify prejudices far more strongly felt than objectively justifiable.
A lot of this really comes down to fetishism. (An inanimate object with soul?)
BTW, I think tubes are nice and analog is great, but vinyl is crap. Sorry. :)
i agree. all this "soul" talk is crap. material composition on a bike does not impart a special soul or feel. switch my frame with one identical in geometry, keep all the components, and i wouldnt be able to tell the difference. a classic car feel and ride so much different from a modern car because of many factors... not just a difference in chassis material. i sold all my alum bikes for steel simply because i prefer the way they look (lugs, small weld beads, small round tubes, etc)
for what it's worth, im a fan of classic cars, tube amps, analog, vinyl, etc etc etc
i agree. all this "soul" talk is crap. . .
Heathen
HeathenAtheist. Heathen have souls, unsaved ones.
I doubt carbon == mp3. Not a lot of file swapping among us carbon users. :D
Carbon fiber is more like FLAC (http://flac.sourceforge.net/).
Ok seriously,
You don't think difference in material provides a different feel?
material composition on a bike does not impart a special soul or feel. switch my frame with one identical in geometry, keep all the components, and i wouldnt be able to tell the difference
I'd go so far as to agree when it comes to Ti and Steel and some modern
aluminium, but CF just feels deadened (note I did not say DEAD)
and old Aluminium is a real kidney shaker.
Marty
It's all good; just some better. I've got short, stiff steel frames that I don't like to ride for more than 20 miles ('72 & '74 Carlton & Raleigh "fastback" Pros), and other steel frames that are comfy all day ('70 & '74 Raleigh Internationals). I've got Ti frames that feel like wet noodles, but comfy all day ('75 & '78 Speedwell TitaLite - 3.5 pounds WITH fork!). I've got comfy aluminum frames ('85 ALAN).
I think a steel frame loses it's soul once the alloy gets lighter. My steel chromoly hybrid from Univega has plenty of soul even though it weights nearly 28 lbs! The frame really speaks to me as it absorbs small ruts and cracks like no other bike in my stable. The large wheelbase of this bike, since it's a tourer makes for an incredibly plush ride. Lots of those cracks on the road go unnoticed. This is what makes the Surly Crosscheck a bike that's mentioned all the time on this forum. A low level chromoly frame like that has be ridden to be understood.
The Aluminum frames I ridden felt dead even with a chromoly fork! There must be boat loads of bikes made this way because this seems to be the opinion of most people who have ridden this alloy. I suppose you have to spend good money to get a aluminum frame that feels like steel. I wonder if adding carbon fork makes the aluminum frame feels like steel or is the vibration just nulled a bit? I don't see how you can make an 18 pound aluminum frame feel like a Reynolds 525. For example, my Bianchi Milano and Volpe feel totally different and it's not my imagination. I had to get a suspension seat post for my Milano (Aluminum) while the Volpe (Reynolds 525) had its removed.
You're an audiophile so I'll provide the following SAT style analogy:
steel is to vacuum tubes as aluminum is to transitors
No matter how good microprocessors get a well tuned tube amp still sounds better.
No matter how good microprocessors get a well tuned tube amp still sounds better.
Perhaps true, but a good solid state amp should not have any microprocessors in it.
Al
Ok seriously,
You don't think difference in material provides a different feel?
I'd go so far as to agree when it comes to Ti and Steel and some modern
aluminium, but CF just feels deadened (note I did not say DEAD)
and old Aluminium is a real kidney shaker.
Marty
holistically, the material itself plays only a small role.
i have modern bikes in reynolds 520 and true temper 4130. roomate has CF trek 5200. best friend has classic 1970s merckx and ron cooper (in C-SL and 531)...friend has aluminum trek... and of course we all ran through a bunch of other bikes
concerning the qualities that people attribute to the material--vibration transmission, lively or deadened feel--i felt that they were MOST affected by changing wheels, tire pressures, saddles, and other components. in the grand schemes of things, i dont care much for the frame material.
richard sachs make tube purchases by convenience.. he doesnt seek specific vendors.. and he never places the tubing stickers on his bikes... i wonder if any of the RS riders can tell what tubing they are, or if they even care.
Okay... here's my analogy.
Upbringing - You take any kid and you teach them manners, values and send them to good schools. This is akin to the traditional art of bicycle making in which you pick reputable tubes and you design and manufacturer a solid riding bike using sound principles.
Selection - You pick kids selectively from refined influential families, send them to the best schools, apply the right incentives and pressures for them to achieve. This is akin to what a lot of manufacturers are doing today. They pick from a menu of tweaked and manipulated tubing that will suit their design principles and then but it together in a specific way based on their bike designs.
Genetic Manipulation/Engineering - You get down to the gene level and start playing God. This is akin to what CF allows you to do. You can engineer down to the very material itself and reorient things heterogenously. You then apply that material into your design in a non-homogenous manner to take advantage of localised properties. With some of the advances in nano-construction of CF, this process stands to allow for very high levels of innovation because you can get down to the submolecular level.
All of the above methods require skill, craftsmanship and engineering. None in no way detract from another. And all can create similarly high quality bicycles. Given the right amount of skill, craftsmanship and engineering one method can create a bike that behaves and rides like a bike created from another method. Just because your Kung-Fu is of a different style from my Kung-Fu does not mean both cannot achieve the same goal. Admittedly, the different styles of bicycle manufacturing are often meant to achieve different goals.
soul.
*shaking head*
why did i feel the need to use that word??? all ive created is the congregation for a bunch of goofy wackjobs!
. . . . and i think im enjoying it.
but anyway, yeah, i didnt realize how frowned-upon it is in the real cycling world to ride on the sidewalk. it is an intimidating idea, but if that's how it's supposed to be done - to which i have yet to read anything contrary - then i will start to try it for increasing amounts of time and distance. so this is my public self-renouncing cry out for help:
i now call upon the soul of the bike to save my soul!! for i have bike-sinned, and rode several miles - many many hundreds of miles - on the sidewalk!!! I promise to relinquish this habit, but i do request spiritual help from Thine almighty omni-material powers!!
They have a kick.
Recoil, tensile flex.
That's why springs and bridges are made out of steel.
http://www.optimistonline.co.uk/acatalog/l-1304.jpg
That's why springs and bridges are made out of steel.
http://www.optimistonline.co.uk/acatalog/l-1304.jpg
They're also made of other materials... such as titanium and carbon fibre. ;)
They're also made of other materials... such as titanium and carbon fibre. ;)
I'm not talking about Titanium-clad steel, carbon fiber wrapping, or any other polymer composites... sheesh! :D
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