PS3 misconceptions and spin
I read various game forums from time to time, and often see gamers complaining about 'lazy ports' to the ps3. They often mention how the ps3 is the most powerful game console and blame developers working on the console for doing a bad job. Sony has all of these people duped by impressive marketing spin, and I'm often amazed at how potent this type of rhetoric proves to be. For those unaware, I'm going to break it down simply and explain exactly why ports to the ps3 will never be as good as their 360 counter parts, and why most ps3 exclusives will likely continue to suck. First, lets debunk a few common misconceptions:
"The PS3 is more graphically advanced than the 360"
Fill rate is one of the primary ways to measure graphics performance - in essence, it's a number describing how many pixel operations you can perform. The fill rate on the PS3 is significantly slower than on the 360, meaning that games either have to run at lower resolution or use simpler shader effects to achieve the same performance. Additionally, the shader processing on the ps3 is significantly slower than on the 360, which means that a normal map takes more fill rate to draw on the ps3 than it does on the 360. And I'm not talking about small differences here, we're talking roughly half the pixel pushing power.
"Ok, fine, but the cell is like, super powerful"
In theory, sure, but in reality it doesn't work out that way. Game code simply doesn't split well across multiple processors. You can probably find a way to split a few things off fairly easily - put the audio on one processor, animation on another; but generally the breakup is always going to leave several of the SPUs idle or underutilized. On top of that, it's usually not CPU speed that restricts the visuals in games - it's fill rate.
"Uh, Blue Ray!"
Great for watching movies, but not so great for games. Getting data off the blue ray drive takes about twice as long as it does to get the same data off the 360's DVD drive. That translates into longer load times, or god forbid if your streaming from disk, tighter constraints on the amount of data you can stream.
"But it's got a lot more space than DVD"
Ok, you got me there - it does have a lot more space, and there is the potential to use that to do something cool, but thats unlikely to be realized in any useful way. There are tons of compression techniques available for data and I'd personally rather be able to get my data faster than have more of it. Most developers who use the entire Blue Ray drive are doing it to work around other problems with the ps3 such as it's slow loading - for instance, in Resistance: Fall of Man, every art asset is stored on disk once for every level that uses it. So rather than storing one copy of a texture, you're storing it 12 times. If you took that entire game and removed all the duplicate data, it would likely fit on a DVD without any problem. They do this to speed up load times, which, as I pointed out before, are painfully slow on the ps3. So in this case, the extra space is completely wasted.
"Once developers figure out the PS3 they'll maximize the hardware and it will be amazing"
I suspect a small number of PS3 only developers will optimize the hardware to do something cool. However, this will be an exception to the rule, and will likely involved game designs that are specifically designed for the hardware and funded by Sony. If those will prove to be fun or not is another question.
Most of the performance centric research into the PS3 has been around making it easier for developers to get the same level of performance you get out of the 360 naturally. For instance, some developers are using those extra SPU's on the cell to prepare data for the rendering pipeline. Basically, they take the data they would normally send to the graphics chip, send it to an SPU which optimizes it in some manner, then send it to the graphics chip. So, once again we see an 'advantage' in hardware being used to make up for a disadvantage in another area - a common theme with the ps3. And this introduces an extra frame of latency into the equation, making controller response slower.
So, the common theme is this; developers must spend significantly more time and resources getting the PS3 to do what the 360 can already do easily and with a lot less code. Lets look at how this translates into practical realities for a moment:
Why the PS3 version often pails in comparison to the 360 version, and why exclusives often suck:
As outlined above, getting equivalent performance out of the PS3 requires a lot of work unique to the platform, and in many cases, even with all these tricks, you still won't see equivalent performance. Thus, many ps3 games have simplified shaders and run at lower native resolutions than the 360 versions. On top of this, there is shrinking incentive to do this work; the PS3 isn't selling.
The code needed to make the PS3 work is most likely only useful to you on the PS3, as the types of tricks you need to do to make the thing perform are very unique to the platform and unlikely to be useful on any other architecture now or in the future. These issues all stem from unbalanced hardware design, and any future hardware that is this unbalanced will likely be unbalanced in a completely unique way.
Finally, there's the problem of resources. Game Development is, at it's heart, a resource management challenge. Given finite resources, do I have these five engineers work on optimizing the PS3 version to look better, or do I use them to make the game play better and fix bugs? Do I change my design to fit with what the PS3 hardware does well, or simply run the game at a slightly lower resolution on the PS3 to make up for it? Developers striving to push the PS3 hardware have often sacrificed their game in the process.
This post might come across as a lot of Sony bashing, but it's just the reality from the trenches. Sony let their hardware be designed by a comity of business interests rather than a well thought out design that would serve the game development community. They are going to loose hard this round because of it, and I hope that in the next round they take lessons from this round and produce a more balanced and usable machine.
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Amen brother... Amen.
The trouble with the PS3
what would you know about it? all of harmoniax games looks like shit
"Fill rate is one of the primary ways to measure graphics performance - in essence, it's a number describing how many pixel operations you can perform. The fill rate on the PS3 is significantly slower than on the 360, meaning that games either have to run at lower resolution or use simpler shader effects to achieve the same performance. Additionally, the shader processing on the ps3 is significantly slower than on the 360, which means that a normal map takes more fill rate to draw on the ps3 than it does on the 360. And I'm not talking about small differences here, we're talking roughly half the pixel pushing power."
so that is why bad looking games like halo 3 is only 640p on 360 and awesome looking games like uncharted is 720p on ps3? :lol
you have no idea what you're talking about
"For those unaware, I'm going to break it down simply and explain exactly why ports to the ps3 will never be as good as their 360 counter parts, and why most ps3 exclusives will likely continue to suck."
What a classy guy. low fill rate = games suck. alert the presses!
your agenda:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8375961&postcount=65
"Getting data off the blue ray drive takes about twice as long as it does to get the same data off the 360's DVD drive."
Afaik the average speed on SL DVD´s is more or less the same as Blu-Ray. On dual layer DVD´s Blu-Ray has a slight advantage.
"Basically, they take the data they would normally send to the graphics chip, send it to an SPU which optimizes it in some manner, then send it to the graphics chip."
They take advantage of the Cell CPU, this is a good thing not a badt thing.
"The code needed to make the PS3 work is most likely only useful to you on the PS3, as the types of tricks you need to do to make the thing perform are very unique to the platform and unlikely to be useful on any other architecture now or in the future."
Yes and No, if you "thread" carefully you will gain speed on the 3 core cpu in the 360.
"but thats unlikely to be realized in any useful way".
Drakes fortune and Rachet and Clank takes up way more space than the 7GB you can store on a 360 DVD.
Maybe you shouldn´t use a launch game as evidence :-)
"The fill rate on the PS3 is significantly slower than on the 360"
If you want to take advantage of the "fill rate" on the 360 you have to reduce the resolution on your games. Hello Halo 3, hello Grand Turismo HD 4 real :-)
I see some very fundemental flaws in your piece and that makes is seem like blatant trolling.
Quick! You must inform Infinity Ward about this before they release their excellent PS3 version of Call of Duty 4!
I don't really know enough about the two platforms to comment on issues like fill rate and Blu-ray versus DVD performance, though I've heard some things that might dispute what you say here on these two counts. But you may be right, and I'll take that.
But you also said that "many ps3 games have simplified shaders and run at lower native resolutions than the 360 versions". The latter part just isn't true. Most PS3 games run at 720p. The ones that don't, run at 1080p. Very similar to the 360, except for the fact that a couple 360 games (like Halo3 and PGR3) actually run at LESS than 720p. There have been no known cases of PS3 games running at less than 720p.
Playstation Home will compete with his new company, so the PS3 is his enemy at the moment. With this as the backdrop, it's hard to lend any credence to his technical arguments.
Very interesting. I'd like to know what other developers have to say but I am sure they are generally not allowed to openly criticize a machine they work with. I am less interested in what random internet gamers who focus on Sony's first party lineup in their arguments have to say.
As long as some devs are pumping out games of a calibre like Uncharted, or Call of Duty 4 (looks and runs as good if not better than the 360 version) etc. stuff like this rings very hollow. And is pretty laughable actually, with the comment about exclusives 'continuing to suck'. Uncharted and Ratchet & Clank are pretty much the best looking upcoming console games.
I also would love to know where some of the numbers in this blog post are coming from. I copied this to a friend of mine who works at Havok, and he told me to stop reading fanboy posts on message boards!
I totally agree with your comments concerning the PS3 having certain hardware problems/issues. But then name me one games console ever released that didn't.
I just think your being overly harsh. It is clear that in terms of hardware design MS focused there energies on the GFX chip, whilst Sony focused there energies on the CPU. As a result each system has it's own set of advantages and disadvantages... What is clear based on the games released for both systems so far is that they are both capable of displaying fantastic graphics. In my opinion it is not the hardware that is the problem now, it's the imagination of the developers/publishers that needs upgrading.
Just looking for more hits on your blog or is this just an heads up for a shitty PS3 port of Rock Band?
Many developers have stated exactly the opposite (1st AND 3rd party), and they actually make games way more demanding of a system then Rock Band. Why should we trust you above them?
SO what you are saying is that it takes more effort and some understanding of the the Cell system to get the same or better play/graphics from the Ps3? Once again you only emphisize how game producers are LAZY and do NOT want to learn anything new. You can not deny it as that is what you stated.
Don't like cell? What's the matter? Too DEEP for you?
Dumb rant! Reminds me of Gabe Newell. Sounds like he's mad about HOME as well. BOO HOO!
I don't think this guy knows what he's talking about. How can games like RFOM, Uncharted, R&C run so beautifully and at full 1080p and not his little game which let's face it, is not exactly a number cruncher AI wise. Its not even that this game has a lot of different scenes etc. I don't know what he's crying about.
As far as installed base goes, PS3 have already sold 5.6 mil. That's numbers before the 40GB price cut.
Whatever helps you sleep at night man.
Hes just a lazy coder. He wants to continue making games the size of Mario Bro. for Nintindo and charge 60 bucks for them.Quit being a lazy slob fatboy.
If your attention to detail while programming is ANYTHING like what you have shown with your blog it is no wonder you had difficulty understanding it.
Whilst many of the points are obvious to many of us inside the industry, unfortunately for all faults it has it still has ways around them and like stated its just a matter of resources to work around them.
Resources are an issues but if your making specifically (exclusive) for the PS3 this issue whilst still important doesn't have as much of an impact as with a port.
I will agree however that the hardware isn't as effective to use as the 360 from the bat and cell structure is pretty damning to work with but its not something that can't be worked around (resources claim again).
I think it was a given we all knew the 360 GPU was better then the PS3 GPU (if only in certain respects) but they're are unique ways to work with the cell that are quite interesting (although they do cause slowdowns).
Also people are going to look at what you said about multiple processors and mis-interp it as cores, you should really have specified that cause most don't realize how the cell actually works and that the approaches to multi-core programming doesn't automatically apply (if at all really) to the cells design and in the grand scheme to work made in programming for multi-cores doesn't translate straight to cell at all.
Blu-ray is a touchie subject, in some respects its useful and others not. It helps many of the PS3 hardware bottlenecks however so this in essence is a good thing, the transfer speeds hold true until you push it onto the hard-drive which dramatically increases loads and streams, which is probably why sony included such a large hard-drive in the first place to supplement this flaw in blu-rays speeds but if the hard-drive isn't used then yes this is a extremely fundamental flaw.
I've notice the artists at my work enjoy the extra leg room with space restrictions with the format but cause of the hardware limitations on the PS3 this space doesn't translate to much if anything at all but maybe will in later life be useful.
I or You can't predict nothing in the long term in our industry, technology and software advances come high and unique to us on many occasions. Something I could do in three years could be impossible right now but doable then, its how it works.
As to people claiming exclusive games (uncharted, R&C) to the platform look and play nice thats because when you develop from the ground up for a platform you make everything around that platform and not for a porting reason, this gives you a ton of leg room that multi-platforms would never give you, thus you can do things whilst not cutting others in the process.
As to the call of duty 4 claim, you guys should realize that they built it from the ground up to be multi-platform, they made there engine structure different for the versions taking advantage of each of the consoles respective hardware so they wouldn't have trouble with the overall hardware issues whilst doing all the other technical and artist work.
Basically they nipped a bud in the butt before they started so they didn't have these troubles down the path.
Many are going to claim bias on you and probably even bash you for this blog but when your on the front line things are not so clean cut (we know more sure) as when sitting on the side lines watching, I'm surprised you didn't podcast or livecast however cause words generally hold no merit on the internet.
In an ideal world we'd be able to filter these comments, hiding the hot air spouted by fanboys in defence of their chosen brand.
As for me I'm just going to nod silently in agreement with the main story.
Haha - you can tell we've all come here via ps3fanboy.com!
"Playstation Home will compete with his new company, so the PS3 is his enemy at the moment. With this as the backdrop, it's hard to lend any credence to his technical arguments."
Thanks mate, that's what I was wondering.
It's the same bullshit as Gabe Newell, a former Microsoft employee..
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