全 56 件のコメント

[–]bowlercaptain [スコア非表示]  (23子コメント)

I'm all for caution, but I'm nervous about a sub specifically designed around suspecting game developers of deceit. Yes it happens on occasion, but the world definitely does not need more antagonism between gamers and devs. Just something to think about, I guess. Be careful you don't encourage brigading or witch-hunting.

[–]Alarchy [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

No worries; I've created /r/GamesWatchdogWatchdog to keep an eye on them.

[–]theryman [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Hmm I'm a little nervous about this subreddit... Wait I have an idea

[–]keiranlovett [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I agree. It's not like studios set out to purposefully deceit players, it often the result of misplaced marketing efforts or the typical corporate management woes which gamers (only seeing the result / symptoms and not the causes) over react to

[–]g_squidman [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

People in /r/truegaming don't know shit about development.

[–]meanjerkasshat [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I read a lot of comments about game development on r/truegaming that are clearly made up and the posters don't qualify these "facts" as the opinions and/or guesses that they are. However, I also read posts from game developers on here too (which I can tell from their insight or context - most don't pronounce themselves game developers). The weird things is, the alarmist opinions and guesses often get up-voted and the game developer's posts often get ignored. They can even be down-voted to hell if gamers have called a witch-hunt on some group or another - any opinions or facts that oppose the validity of the witch-hunt get down-voted and any made up bullshit that supports the validity will get up-voted.

[–]fmpf [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Welcome to the post-truth world. Anecdotal evidence is far stronger than real, quantifiable evidence if it appeals to people's emotions.

[–]meanjerkasshat [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm inclined to agree with the spirit of your post, but this isn't anything new. People have been deceiving themselves based on emotion and nativism ever since the first shaman decided he could stay home and eat sacrifices instead of doing all the work of a hunt just by weaving a few yarns about the greater mysteries that both cause fear and offer solace from the invented boogey-man.

[–]SHOW_ME_YOUR_GOATS [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

People on reddit don't know shit about development.

[–]twistedrapier [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Speak for yourself. There are plenty of experienced developers (of all types) that read reddit.

[–]_Aceria [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Indeed, plenty of us hang around in/r/gamedev. I only have 4 years of professional experience as a game sev, but seen plenty of posts there from veterans.

[–]mrbrick [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah but they are busy working on games instead of searching for conspiracy and evidence of shady stuff or throwing out easy arm chair dev fixes for stuff.

[–]TribeWars [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I think the one thing non-developers don't understand, is how easy it is to create a buggy mess and how hard it is to fix it.

[–]tehblackknight [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Because there's no way a game developer would ever have a reddit account...

[–]BigPimp92[S] [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

I see where you are coming from. I agree that we need to be careful to not let the conversation devolve into pointless hatred.

I want the sub to be a place for constructive and positive discussion, and well as criticism and discussion of the unpleasant goings on in the industry.

[–]runtheplacered [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I see where you are coming from. I agree that we need to be careful to not let the conversation devolve into pointless hatred.

How can it not, though? /r/games already devolves into hatred and it's not even remotely supposed to be the point of the sub. I can't even imagine what your sub will look like the second a developer has to remove a minor graphical detail because it stopped them from hitting 60 FPS like they wanted to. People break their own wrists because they can't complain with their keyboards fast enough.

I guess my main question is, isn't this stuff already being discussed openly in most gaming subs? Was there not enough conversation happening when NMS shit the bed? Using NMS has an obvious example, what more could your sub provide that wasn't already provided literally anywhere else?

as well as discuss good practices and responsible developers to encourage good changes in the industry,

I don't know, man. A sub called "Games Watch Dogs" does not sound like it's going to be promoting a whole lot of positive behavior.

I wish you the best and I hope I'm wrong, but man, I feel like just a cursory glance around the Internet is enough to make me nervous about a sub like that actually getting a serious amount of followers.

[–]mitch13815 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I feel like the title of the sub is just a little bit too aggressive.

[–]Danokitty [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I think it sounds like a sub for the game Watchdogs.

It's confusing, at least.

[–]Darkstrategy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I want the sub to be a place for constructive and positive discussion, and well as criticism and discussion of the unpleasant goings on in the industry.

That sounds like the point of this subreddit. What people are saying is the part you want it to be is redundant, so it'll fall to the wayside. The part you don't want it to be will supersede this to fill the vacuum.

[–]Thelonous [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I think it would be interesting if once established, the sub could host AMAs from devs who have successfully released a game without deceptive practices. But like what was said, there would have to be heavy moderation to keep the sub focused and also clear rules/guidelines that are enforced.

[–]MountCydonia [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Here's the problem with a subreddit like that:

Developers know that there are problems. They really do care. Very few people on the internet actually truly understand how game development works, so developers get called "lazy" all the time, accused of "not caring", and so on and so forth. Thing is - developers aren't lazy. This is a life-destroying industry, often requiring 14+ hours of work every day for months on end just to get the product out of the door, for a mediocre wage, and little to no job security.

The problem is publishers. Publishers are the ones who push games out before they're early. Publishers are the ones who charge ridiculous prices. Publishers are the ones who cut games into pieces and sell parts of the core experience as DLC. Publishers are the ones who withhold review embargoes until after release. And you know what? They don't care.

I mean, sure - publishers don't want to release bad, broken games, but they are money-making companies. People don't get into gamedev to make money (because it pays poorly), they get into it because they want to make good games. However, more often than not, a publisher is going to get in the way between a developer and their craft, and mess things up for everyone. Necessary evil is quite the accurate term.

And yet, the internet goes after the developers all the time. Look at how Dice (Battlefield 4 bugs, series DLC), Rocksteady (Arkham Knight broken), Arkane (Dishonored 2 broken), etc are being berated by the public, when actually the blame lies squarely on EA, Warner Bros and Bethesda for pushing the games out before they're finished, and creating exploitative DLC schemes.

So why is a sub like this a bad idea? Because publishers are making money. And so long as they make money, they don't care. If their profits are growing, then they'll care even less about what the internet says. So in the end, you're either going to be going after publishers and wasting your time, or you're going to go after developers and target the wrong people. Also, devs can't talk about these things. I don't know what you're really expecting - there's no way for anyone to hold the industry to account, except for not buying their products, and placing a legal complaint if a law is broken. And that's it. People can set up witch hunts if they want (and with the aggressive-sounding name of the subreddit, I have no doubt that'll happen if it gets big enough), but they won't produce anything positive, and will only harm the developers who aren't in control of what happens, and who are already far more stressed than you would imagine.

[–]thwoomp [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Well said. I'm not sure what is the precise reason, but the sense of entitlement of modern gamers is really getting out of hand. I think that not enough of them understand how truly hard it is to produce a game which will live up to their stratospheric standards.

[–]Ethridel3 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

So instead of blaming developers, we should blame publishers? That isn't going to solve anything.

You need to hear the horror stories from publishers and investors then. Yes, there are publishers who market too aggressively (Electronic Arts), but there are plenty of smaller publishers who aren't the incarnation of evil. Too many dev firms fail to budget properly, like PR and marketing. There are firms who seek investors the moment they run out of money. There are indies who have to ship games regularly because they can't earn a living otherwise.

So let's not pretend that making money from your craft is evil, or that marketing and PR is. Given how negative a large portion of gamers are anyway, no wonder that devs turn to publishers.

Highly recommend you watch this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAI5W7Y5H28

[–]MountCydonia [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I wrote my comment talking about the big AAA publishers. Of course it doesn't apply to every company - but I didn't bother mentioning it as I felt it was implied in my comment.

[–]KantArgueWithThat [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I have never run a subreddit

Are you confident you can wrangle the witchhunters who will soon be gathering in your subreddit?
Because if you can't, that could force the Admins to take action and quarantine your subreddit or dish out bans.

[–]BigPimp92[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Firstly, I am not going to outright cast judgement on the gaming community as "witch hunters". I strongly believe that there are plenty of mature gamers who want to have responsible and constructive discussions about the state of the gaming industry.

Second, I have already begun putting together a mod team as well as writing up proper rules to keep the sub accurate, civil and mature.

[–]KantArgueWithThat [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Firstly, I am not going to outright cast judgement on the gaming community as "witch hunters". I strongly believe that there are plenty of mature gamers who want to have responsible and constructive discussions about the state of the gaming industry.

Yea, but do you seriously think you'll be able to keep the others out?

[–]Jumbso [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm glad you have faith, but this type of subreddit is just gonna call in the alt right, regressive, gamer gate crowd who will turn it into complaining about women or something.

I truly hope I'm wrong. Good luck!

[–]Xylord [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I remember thinking, all the way back when we saw the very first NMS trailer "Man, those people are getting hyped up to hell, and there no way HG can deliver on half of this stuff". And then, as the hype grew worse and worse, and the interviews got ever more Molyneux-like and vague, this feeling just grew stronger.

The surge of smugness when the game was exactly what I expected it to be was nice, but it would have been even nice if expectations had been kept in check. NMS is an okay 20-30$ game; at that price point, and without all the lies, it would be just another nice indie game.

Anyway, enough ranting. That's a great idea OP. Try to encourage logical discussion. /r/NeutralPolitics requires sources with claims, and I think that would be an amazing rule to have, with the amount of misinformation in the game industry.

Actually, all the rules from that sub are great at encouraging thoughtful discussion without silencing opinions.

Comment Rules

We expect the following from all users:

1) Be courteous to other users. Name calling, sarcasm, demeaning language, or otherwise being rude or hostile to another user will get your comment removed.

2) Source your facts. If you're claiming something to be true, you need to back it up with a qualified source.

3) Put thought into it. Memes and one line replies are strongly disfavored. Explain the reasoning behind what you're saying. Statements of opinion require stated reasoning.

4) Address the arguments, not the person. The subject of your sentence should be "the evidence" or "this source" or some other noun directly related to the topic of conversation. "You" statements are suspect.

Posting Rules

We require the following for submitting new posts:

A) Pose a specific political question as the basis for discussion. Questions that cannot be answered through logic or evidence are not permitted.

B) Provide sources. Just like for comments, new submissions need to source the facts which underlie their question.

C) Outline the issue well. Give more than just a headline, there should be some background on the question.

D) Frame it in a neutral way. The post should not be strongly leading towards a particular answer. Note this rule is for posts only, for comment rules see the comments section.

E) Title your post accurately. The title of the post and its contents should match.

Without the political stuff, of course. I subscribed, looking forward to /r/GamesWatchdog being successful.

[–]BigPimp92[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Hey thanks for the good suggestions. I already had added a rule about being factual and posting source, its true that its really important that people back up their assertions.

Youre right about NMS, I saw the hype go way out of hand and I also predicted the dissapointment. But that doesnt forgive Hello Games for lying about the game to build hype and sell copies.

I guess it comes down to 2 issues that both need addressing. We need to encourage gamers to be skeptical and patient when looking at promotional material, and we need to hold developers accountable when they do dishonest stuff like that.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing you in discussions on our new sub!

[–]Alex__V [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

We also need to encourage gamers to be skeptical and patient in terms of the anger that tend to accompany any issue over a game's release, which can often get unreasonably nasty.

[–]Agret [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

My big red flag for no man's sky is that before there was a huge silence about the development all they'd shown was a video of planetary landing and take off. When they showed the e3 demo of a couple creatures on a planet but still no actual game play and just vague as hell comments on it being "whatever you want it to be" or to that effect I knew it was going to be huge vapor ware.

The fact they kept claiming it was a multiplayer title but that the odds of finding anyone would be terribly impossible and that you would not be able to tell a player from an npc made me laugh, I thought the multiplayer would end up being asymetrical where if you visited the same planet that someone else was on an npc clone of their player character and ship would be visible as it didn't seem worth coding in proper multiplayer if the odds were so astronomically low of finding anyone.

The fact they didn't have any form of multiplayer at all though just kinda threw me, I expected the game to massively under deliver but I didn't expect them to outright lie.

[–]BigPimp92[S] [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

Just a quick thanks to the people upvoting this post, I just want to get some exposure for the subreddit in this early stage.

I know that its a little weird to promote our sub here on this sub, even with the close relationship in topics they have.

So if the mods here feel that this is not appropriate we will understand.

[–]CalebTechnasis [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

This seems like a reasonable place to promote it, and this is certainly a sub I would be interested in. There have been far too many games lately that have let me down. NMS was (is) a huge deal, but Mafia III was officially the last straw on preorders for me. My friend reported that Deus Ex behaves fickle on consoles (which should not be ignored either), and latest, mixed reviews on performance from the new Dishonored.

Maybe one poor game a year would be a reasonable expectation, but this lack of quality control has become far too prevalent. Why is this happening? When did it become such a trend? And most importantly, what can we do to facilitate improvement?

[–]BigPimp92[S] [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

Personally NMS was the last straw on pre orders for me, but yeah I get what you're saying man. I think we need to work together to find ways to hold game developers accountable, but also we need to talk about how we gamers behave as consumers. Skepticism and patience need to be encouraged if we want to stop people from getting ripped off or tricked.

[–]lolbifrons [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

You guys are late to the club. My last preorders (not counting Overwatch, which I had the opportunity to play before I "preordered" it) were one fateful year when Diablo 3, Guild Wars 2 and Battlefield 3 turned out to be a waste of $180 combined.

[–]BigPimp92[S] [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

I never played any of the guild wars, but personally I enjoyed D3 and BF3. What made you feel that they were a waste?

[–]okiyama [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Did you get D3 at launch? They improved it significantly with patches

[–]BigPimp92[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

No I got it much later. That probably explains it.

[–]lasagnaman [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah I didn't get it til RoS but my understanding is that vanilla D3 was pretty trash.

Then again Valinna D2 wasn't that great either....

[–]lolbifrons [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Both were a huge disappointment compared to their respective series' second installments. D3 I wound up playing a reasonable amount after improvements, but it is still worse than d2.

There's never been a multiplayer FPS as good as BF2 since its release, at least as far as I've found.

[–]BigPimp92[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Yeah I get that. I still like D2 better than D3, but I always just chalked that up to nostalgia

[–]lolbifrons [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I've actually gotten back into d2 recently. It's not just better than d3, it's better than PoE. After all these years.

[–]KDBA [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Planetside 2 was the closest to that BF2 feeling I've encountered in recent years, but the devs seem to hell-bent on making it worse with every patch so I can no longer recommend playing it.

[–]echo-ghost [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

promoting your sub here isn't the right place to do it no, this is a place for discussion not promotion, but you are fine. the mods here are non-existent

[–]BigPimp92[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

How about promoting a place for a specific type of discussion?

[–]mitch13815 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

This isn't something I'm super interested in, but I definitely like the premise and I'll subscribe to help get it off the ground. Hope things take off (it looks like it has a pretty solid start already)!

[–]BigPimp92[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Thanks, hope to see you joining in on some discussions in the future!