全 132 件のコメント

[–]Antigonus1i 28ポイント29ポイント  (76子コメント)

Wait, so now it's okay to fuck girls who are black-out drunk as long as they initiated it? That doesn't sound right.

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S -1ポイント0ポイント  (23子コメント)

as they initiated it

Well, if you read Schumer's story it's less that he initiates, and more that she pretty much just lies there. In other words: She doesn't fuck him, she allows him to fuck her. So, to answer your question, you shouldn't have sex with blackout drunk girls, but if a girl is drunk and wants to have sex with you, I don't think you're under any moral obligation to stop her either.

[–]delamarche 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

In other words: She doesn't fuck him, she allows him to fuck her.

That's what I find so weird about this narrative. It basically boils down to "It was ok because she was a lousy lover with the sexual quality of a dead fish, but if she had cared about him and tried to make it enjoyable for him by doing some movements, then it would have been rape".

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's more that she's not forcing anything on him, but potato kartoffel I guess.

[–]delamarche 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Now it's about force?

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not in the sense of violence, no.

[–]Antigonus1i 0ポイント1ポイント  (17子コメント)

I wasn't really referring to Schumer's story, but what some of the commenters there were saying to justify that story. Personally I think as long as you are conscious you are responsible for your actions.

[–]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Which is why someone who is merely tipsy can still consent.

My personal opinion is that it's best to not have sex with anyone who's had more than a few drinks, because people can be very very drunk and not appear so until right before they pass out.

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 1ポイント2ポイント  (15子コメント)

To rape someone, you have, you know, actually do something. You have to take an active part. If some drunk tries to thrust into your hips, or tries to perform oral sex on you, and you don't do anything, you are not committing rape.

This part, I guess?

I don't know. It's absurd to describe either party in this story as a rape victim. Yes, he didn't explicitly ask for consent (people in real life rarely do), but on the other hand I think it's hard to argue for a definition of rape in which people can take an active part in their own rape, where their victimisation can be at their own hand: If him fingering her makes him a victim, then there's a problem - she could have been passive for any number of reasons, including fear.

That's why your summary stuck out to me. It's not okay to fuck someone who is passed out, even if they initiate the sex, but as long as people are doing stuff to others instead of merely having things done to them, I think it's impossible and unfair to call it rape, barring threats and/or manipulation (EG date rape).

[–]atsteak 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think it's hard to argue for a definition of rape in which people can take an active part in their own rape, where their victimisation can be at their own hand: If him fingering her makes him a victim, then there's a problem - she could have been passive for any number of reasons, including fear.

So if a 15 year old indicates they want to perform oral sex on you, and instead of saying no and walking away you lie back and let them do it, that's fine and doesn't make you a pedo-rapist because 'you could have been passive for any number of reasons, including fear'?

Unless the 15 year old was pointing a gun at your head, I really don't think that argument holds water.

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

What an absurd comparison.

[–]atsteak 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because a slurring-their-words drunk is mentally competent enough to consent?

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Consent to what? Their own actions? Being drunk isn't like being a minor, there is no hard rule against sleeping with drunk people (Such as having a given BAC, for instance) It's a much, much harder judgement call to make, because people get very very drunk and have sex literally all the time. On the other hand, the ban against having sex with minors literally evaporates the second they turn 18, no judgement call needed (and then again, there's a reason why romeo and juliet laws exist).

[–]Antigonus1i 2ポイント3ポイント  (9子コメント)

It's absurd because the idea that drunk people can't consent to sex is absurd.

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

I think it's an important point to get out there, though - alcohol is the most common rape drug, after all. And imho there is a large grey area where people might be conscious but not really in control of their actions, where, to quote Cornell's consent guidelines, "sexual interactions with another party who has been drinking heavily should . . . be undertaken . . . at one’s own risk." Or to put it another way, people should always err on the side of not raping anyone. I'd feel a lot differently about this story if Amy Schumer had been the aggressor or active participant, even if he had been awake throughout the whole ordeal.

[–]zolfe 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

My problem with the Schumer story is that she recognized he was very drunk at the door but still decided to take advantage of the situation because she wanted to make herself feel better about herself. The exploitation and subsequent speech rub me wrong.

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you have a point there. I think that it might be a bit inaccurate to say that she's 'taking advantage of the situation', though. It's more like she's recognising that he's using her in a way that he probably wouldn't if sober and sort of accepts it - none of them come off really well in this story. If there's exploitation, it goes both ways I think? I mean neither of them are doing anything illegal or capital W Wrong, but it's a sleazy, sad story nevertheless.

[–]Antigonus1i -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

The problem with date rape isn't people having sex with drunk people, it's people tricking other people into becoming intoxicated in order to take advantage of them. As long as you choose to consume alcohol you are completely responsible for the consequences. When someone tricks you or forces you in some way to consume alcohol or other substances, it becomes a whole different issue.

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

Except what if they were pressured into drinking, didn't understand the effects of alcohol, etc etc etc. Having sex with someone who is heavily intoxicated is probably always going to be a grey area even if they became drunk knowingly and deliberately, and it's hard to create any hard rules for what is or isn't sexual assault in these cases.

[–]Antigonus1i 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Now we're already talking in more reasonable terms. There is a big difference between saying there is a grey area and that someone in unable to consent.

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah, but the only person arguing from such a point of view is /u/elkmont - and he seems to base this view mostly on the strawman idea that 'feminism' prohibits drunk people from having sex.

[–]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why do you think someone who is severely intoxicated is capable of giving consent to sex?

What do you think consent entails, exactly?

[–]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't know. It's absurd to describe either party in this story as a rape victim. Yes, he didn't explicitly ask for consent (people in real life rarely do), but on the other hand I think it's hard to argue for a definition of rape in which people can take an active part in their own rape, where their victimisation can be at their own hand: If him fingering her makes him a victim, then there's a problem - she could have been passive for any number of reasons, including fear.

Thank you.

This is the point I was trying to make about using this particular situation as a template for talking about what consent is and isn't.

[–]HoldingTheFire 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The only thing that matters is if the person feels violated. I've never heard it called rape by anyone but people trying to play feminist gotcha.

[–]IndieLadyMy metacancer brings all the cabals to the yard 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

She also described a disociation with herself. It was pointed out to me by a rape survivor that what she described matched his own experience as well as many other survivors.

I am bloody well sick and tired of Redditors talking about how rape survivors do or don't or should or should or can and can't feel during rape. Or even offering second-hand interpretations of what a rape victim may feel or experience. I'm all for robust discussion about consent and rape, but I would really prefer the armchair psychologists actually let people who have been raped speak for themselves about what it's like and how they felt.

[–]Elkmont 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is actually exactly what got me started down this road. Everyone just wanted her to be a victim.

[–]ttumblrbots 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

doooooogs: 1, 2 (seizure warning); 3, 4, 5, 6; send me more dogs please

want your subreddit archived?

[–]pornyspongeworthless shithead -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I hate myself

[–]TheIdesOfLurchu/TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK alt -2ポイント-1ポイント  (46子コメント)

Man, that /u/Elkmont guy moves the goalpost so many times they're in a different county.

[–]TheLadyEve 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Wow, third time this thread was posted today--it's the thread that just won't quit.

[–]OllyTwistIt has been [0] days since /r/conspiracy has blamed the Joos[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

After the last time it was posted with the bias title, I figured I'd give it a try with the suggested non-biased title.

[–]TheLadyEve 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, that's what I figured, since the title was the same as the suggestion from one of the deleted threads! It was a good suggestion--I think this time it will stick around...