by donhuann
(Mon May 11 2009 16:09:38)
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UPDATED Sun Jul 26 2009 20:28:07 |
A PERFECT SUMMARY OF THIS THREAD,READ IT CAREFULLY PLEASE,
(THIS SUMMARY IS WRITTEN BY NANASHI NO GONBEI,I JUST COPY PASTED,THANKS GONBEI-SAN)
This thread may contain too many comments for newcomers. And sadly, some people have no brain and left only abusive language or their historical fantasy. It's not worth spending time to read them. So I'll sum the matter up succinctly.
The following points are uncontroversial.
I) Rain said that there are Korean ninja.
II) We criticize his statement.
Then what are the problems? For the sake of argumentation, I have ordered disputed points. 1-5 are about the facts, not fiction, which relate to Rain's statement.
6-8 are about the background of this issue which explain why his statement made Japanese so angry. In a Japanese interenet forum, one of the threads about this issue got more than 1500 comments. There are many threads or forums which discuss this issue. I don't know how many comments in total. It seems that the number of the comments will reach 5000 soon.
My English skill may be not good enough to explain the whole situation correctly. If you find false or inappropriate sentence, please let me know. If there are points I didn't mention, also please let me know.
And of course, if you have a problem with my explanation, then please make it clear with which point (for example, 1-a) and for what ground (for example XXX proves that Korea has ninja, blah blah blah...). Then we can discuss more effectively.
SUMMARY
1) Rain said there are Korean ninja. What's wrong with this? And the interviewer said "Korean ninja" first, not Rain.
a) There have never been ninja in Korea, and Korea has no historical evidence that they has quasi-ninjas in her history. Some apologists believe there were quasi-ninjas in Korea, for example Hwarangs. But they have never succeeded to show us the evidences which say that Hwarangs were warrior- or spygroup. So we regard it as mere fantasies.
b) Some apologists say there are many possibilities of what Rain meant in his interview. Well, there are always infinite possibilities in the world. But why should we understand this very simple sentence in other way? Even non-native junior high students can understand the meeaning of this sentence "There are Korean ninja".
c) Interviewer said at first the words "Korean ninja". But does it means he tempted Rain to say "There are Korean ninja"? We don't think so. Apologists think that we pervert Rain's intention, while they pervert the intention of interviewers. And even if he had such an intention, it was easy for Rain to reject it.
"Ninjas are Japanese. Are there Korean ninjas?" Rain answered "yes".
"Rabbis are Jewisch. Are there Christian/Muslim/Buddist rabbis?" Few people will say "yes".
2) But Rain said that Korean ninjas were different from Japanese ninja and they were traditional martial arts clan. Doesn't it make sense?
a) Then, do you call boxers ninjas? WWE superstars ninjas? Olympic Judoists are great ninjas? Of course not. It is possilbe that a martial artists called ninja as his nickname, but it is not our issue. Everybody knows it. In other words, ninja/ninjutsu are different from martial artist/arts not only in history, but also in pop culture. Well, the definiton of ninja is often unclear, but somehow we know the difference between ninja and martial artist.
b) Korean martial arts don't have long history. To tell the truth, the history of Taekwondo, the most famous Korean martial arts, is shorter than that of WWE(WWWF). Most of Korean martial arts are newly invented or started as imitation of Japanese and Chinese martial arts, anyway, most of them appeared only after WW2. That's why Korean martial arts don't have ramified schools like Japanese or Chinese martial arts. So, Rain's explanation includes double fallacy. Well, there isn't clear definition for the word "tradition". So if you think 50 years history is enough, it's OK. But usually, traditional martial arts have history of hundreds years. Ninja has also hundreds history, though ninjas weren't martial artists.
3) There are Korean who pracitce ninjutsu (ninja skills). They can be called Korean ninja. So Rain's statements is correct.
a) It is hard to believe that they learn ninjutsu in Korea. Japanese culture had been officially forbidden in Korea except some cases like Judo and Kendo. NoboyWantU told us that even the word "ninja" isn't allowed to appear in textbook. How could they teach and learn ninjutsu in Korea in such an anti-Japan country?
b) Furthermore Korean still showed very emotional reaction against Japanese culture even then their government doesn't forbid it. For example, there are many Korean stars, scholars, and ordinary people who forced to appologize or resign their job because of their "pro-Japanese attitude". Pro-Japanese...for example, they played a rolle of Japanese. Again, how can they teach or learn Ninjutsu in such a country?
4) This film is fiction.
Yes. So we don't care how they describe ninja in the film. But his interview isn't a fiction. Rain said Korean ninja as fact. It is wrong.
5) OK, Rain maid mistake. But you react exaggeratedly.
I understand your point. If this is a single issue, you have right. But there is a large background of this issue. You may think only we get angry at Rain, But it is wrong. Our discussion is already translated and spreaded to many blogs and forums. If you visit Japanese forums or threads about Rain and this movie, you'll see lots of comments which criticize Rain very severely. In total, the number of the comments may reach 5000. I don't know how many comments will appear by the release of this movie.
So from 6), I'll explain why many Japanese get angry at him. I refer to political situation in Korea, because if I don't, the most of readers can't understand why we get angry and they will think we are overreacting.
6) Rain has been hostile toward Japanese for many years. Japanese anger are cumulative.
a) He mentioned a novel as his favorite. In this novel Korea drops atomic bomb on Japan. It is also made into a movie; in this film Japanese cry and beg for pardon to Korean. It makes very fun for nationalistic Korean like Rain. This book sold very well and the film won a prize in Korea.
b) One of his MV showed a broken building which looks very similar to Hiroshima Peace Memorial which is designated a UNESCO World Heritage. In this video he clothes himself like US soldiers and showed fake hip-hop dance.
Clearly he identified himself as conqueror of Japan and has no sympathy for victims. And it is not absurd to see a relation between a) and b).
c) When he played in Speed racer, he made the director to change his roll from Japanese to Korean. He said it is strange that he, a Korean, played a Japanese roll. He didn't want to be Japanese even in a fiction.
d) And now comes Ninja Assassin. Actually, there are more cases, but I don't want to show all of them. Because we don't aim to inflame anti-Korean sentiment, we refer to his evildoing just to explain the background of this issue.
So, if this were the first time, Japanese wouldn't react so intense. As we said, it is common for us to hear anti-Japan statment from natilonalistic Korean. But Rain is too barefaced.
7) Korea's cultural plagiarism and racism
Not only Rain, but many nationalist Korean expressed their ultra-nationalism and racism. He has still no success in Hollywood, but anyway he plays a main rolle in Ninja Assassin. So his statement about ninja can be used as a propaganda. This is also a reason that it is hard for us to ignore Rain's statement. His anti-Japan behavior has a close relation to Korea's cultural plagiarism and racism.
a) Korea's cultural plagiarism is well known in East-Asia. The main victim is Japanese culture, but Chinese culture are sufferd from it, too. That's why many Chinese and Taiwanese have antipathy against Korean. Ma Ying-jeou, the president of Taiwan, expressed his worry for Korea's cultural plagiarism in relation to Chinese letter.
http://www.yonhapnews.co.kr/international/2009/06/30/0601020100AKR20090630069200083.HTML?template=2646 (from Korean news)
According to the research of Chinese newspaper, Korea was selected as the most disliked country among Chinese; the reason is the cultural plagiarism.
http://japanese.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2007121216338 (from a Japanese version of Korean newspaper. You can read Korean text if you click the button)
We can show more information, but we don't. Because, again, we don't aim to inflame anti-Korean sentiment. We just explain the background of this issue.
b) Korea's racism
We have natioanlist and racist everywhere, in Korea, in China, in Japan, and in USA. So I don't say Korea is a racist nation just because I know many racist Korean. But racists should be criticized by everyone inclusive their compatriots. Now, look this website.
http://aog.2y.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=1550
Of course I don't get mad at these children at all. I just feel pitiful that they got brainwashing. But what did their teachers do? OK, it is theoretically possible that a crazy American/Japanese teacher form a racist project for his students. But I believe, in many countries including USA and Japan, his colleagues or his superior or the parents will stop him. But in South Korea they didn't stop the project. Furthermore, station gave a place for this project. Many passanger had seen the pictures, but they felt nothing strange.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwznDJOQi8c
This video showed many articles of Korean papers which claim the superiority of Korean race.
I've already written, that I have Korean friends. So I know there are rational Korean. But the political situation in Korea is really offensive and dismal. Actually, my friends say they don't want to back to Korea. I hope for them that Korea will do away with ultra-nationalism and racism as soon as possible.
8) Uriginal
In 7-b) we saw the racism in Korea. Their racism are not only against Japanese, but Japanese are main target. Now, Japanese culture is more famous than Korean and somehow more popular than Korean. It is unforgivable for nationalist Korean. Lower (maybe the lowest) race, Japanese has more popularity than Korean, the super race.
But they can't change the taste of the people. So, they decided to claim the origin of Japanese culture. In 7-a) I explained this behavior. This kind of cultural plagiarism is called "uriginal" among Korean watchers (uri = our in Korean). I've already showed the example of suchi and Kendo. They claim and promte Korean culture as a fake-Japanese culture.
Rain's statement is a part of this kind of Uriginal movement.
We don't care that Korean think they are super in their heart, unless they put racism into practice, for example, attack foreigners or restrict the use of the public service (remember "Jim Crow law").
But we can't stand that they exploit Japanese culture for their ultra-nationalism and racism, especially racism against Japanese. This is the point of this issue.
9) appendix
a) Do you swear that you criticize Rain because of his behavior, not because of his race or nationality?
I swear and I believe none of us is racist. If you find my racist comments, please let me know. I'll correct it.
b) Japanese did horrible thing in the history, blah blah blah
I don't deny there were many horrible and wrong deeds done by Japanese as well as by American, Chinese, Korean. It was wartime and human lose their conscience very easily in a war. That's why we should avoid a war. But if you want to discuss the WW2 in detail, this forum is not a good place. Our aim is to discuss the matters in relation to Ninja Assassin. So if you want to discuss the history, go to other forums. IMDb is a place for movies.
And the history of the last century don't justify the evildoings at present. You can't say it is right that a Jewish steal money from a German because of the history.
NOTES FROM USER C11Y;
1-Hi donhuann,
You and Nanashi no Gonbei have been doing an excellent job in this thread. I really don't have anything to add re. Ninja and ninjutsu history, but I wanted to mention that Rain was found guilty of fraud and breach of contract for cancelling a scheduled concert in Honolulu (he also cancelled every single concert on his North American tour -- Toronto, San Francisco, Atlanta, New York, and Los Angeles) back in 2007. While Rain and his managers blamed anyone and anything they could think of for the cancellation, evidence introduced during the U.S. federal jury trial showed that Rain and his management never bothered to obtain visas or to ship their equipment. http://www.starbulletin.com/news/20090320_canceled_show_costs_rain_8m. html
The jury found Rain and his managers guilty and they were ordered to pay more than US$8 million but the lawsuit was recently settled out of court. Regardless, he has committed fraud in the eyes of U.S. law and still faces lawsuits in Toronto, Los Angeles, and San Diego.
2-I really don't think anyone who displays such an appalling lack of logic should be calling anyone an "idiot". None of us have any problems with Koreans playing Japanese roles like James Kyson Lee on Heroes (despite his awful accent). All we're saying is that if an actor agrees to play a Japanese, be a professional and play a Japanese! Don't try to manipulate that role into a Korean after the fact, and then lie about history and culture to justify his selfish deceit.
SOME NOTES FROM USER CoQ1000
1-Hello, donhuann. I'm a Japanese guy and I decided to write this to express my gratitude to your efforts.
I also want to say one more thing; The problem to me is neither Rain plays a Ninja or he is a Korean. The problem is he tells a lie.
Everyone out there must know a character called "Hikaru Sulu" in the Star Trek series.
Sulu is a child of Japanese and Filipino parents. In the original Star Trek and succeeding series, George Takei, a Japanese-American, acted the part of Sulu. Now John Cho, Korean-American born in Seoul, takes over the character in the latest movie.
John Cho didn't claim anything that he wants to avoid playing a Japanese character or wants to play a Korean character. Not Cho himself but George Takei pushed JJ Abrams, the director of Star Trek, to adopt Cho since Sulu is rather a representative of Asian.
None of Japanese gets angry at this fact. None of us doesn't care he is a Korean. We're rather glad to see a talented guy called John Cho looks to play a part of young Sulu respectfully and joyfully.
What the difference from Rain? John Cho never tells any lies.
All for now. Thanks.
2-If the mistake is so small, it's easy for Rain to correct it. I don't understand why many Koreans defend Rain. Why don't you encourage Rain to correct such a small mistake?
Besides, I don't think Rain's "A-Bomb Dance" is so small. It's not even a mistake because it's a planned project many professional people participated with.
3-I might rake over the old ash... but I found the Cosmopolitan article, in which Rain commended anti-Japan materials.
Fanatique de Rain said the interview was on the Cosmopolitan Korean version November 2007 issue but it was actually seen on the December issue. It is so usual that a monthly magazine is published a month before the official issue date that she read it in November 2007.
Check it out anyway. The remarkable "Q&A" is located at the bottom of the page.
http://cosmopolitan.joins.com/lovesex/200711/29/200711291711205475180000180100180101.html?aid=2263
Ah, Hangul... Koreans may have no problem.
For the rest of us, I extracted the important two points and tried to translated them into English using a translator program. One is an anti-Japan novel, and another is a name of a general who beat Japan.
The fourth question;
Q: What is your favorite novel?
A: "The Rose of Sharon Blooms Again"
The 12th (and the last) question;
Q: Whom do you think you are similar to among the celebrities (or persons in history) we know?
A: Lee Sun-shin
The novel called "The Rose of Sharon Blooms Again" was published in 1993 and sold over 3 million copies in Korea, 48 million population country.
Wikipedia shows a blief summary of of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rose_of_Sharon_Blooms_Again
The Rose of Sharon Blooms Again is a popular South Korean novel which extolls pan-Korean nationalism. The story is set in the present and revolves around a South Korean scientist who secretly helps North Korea develop nuclear weapons which are then used to ward off Japanese aggression.
The novel was turned into a movie in Korea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YjyIgSky_Y
You will see a nuclear missile was launched into Japan. It's a dream of Koreans. The story justify the A-bomb attack as a revenge on the first strike from Japan.
http://weekly.hankooki.com/lpage/cover/200409/wk2004092313314937040.htm
Lee Sun-shin is not a big problem but just for your reference. He is a great navy in 15th century who beat the Japanese marine. He is one of the most famous and popular hero in Korea and his battle stories and arms are exaggerated beyond the actual historical texts. Anyway, he won the battles over Japan. This is the most important fact for Koreans. So, Rain thinks he is similar to Lee Sun-shin.
Reading other part of the article, Rain seems to answer in a polite and faithful manner and, to me, he seeme to mention A-bomb novel very naturally.
FROM POOR DONHUANN
Listen me carefully, Mr.Wachowski brothers;
I am not japanese,
I am Turkish,
I am not racist or ethnocentrist too,
but;
I am very angry about yours and your actor's(rain) descriptions about Ninja culture!
I am sorry,We never watch this movie!...Never!
let me explain it why?
Rain said in his latest interview:'Ninja is not just part of Japanese culture there is also Korean Ninjas'
'''Korean Ninjas!'''...what a shameful statement!...what a big lie!
Firstly;In Japanese history, a ninja is a warrior specially trained in a variety of unorthodox arts of war. These include assassination, illusion, espionage, and various martial arts.
There is no connection between Korean culture and Ninjas!...
do you understand that!
You have to show your respects for Japan's historicity...
Secondly;Mr.Waschowski brothers,your Matrix series,Speed Racer and Ninja assassin are based on the Japanese animes and mangas.
so that is why you have to respect to Japanese culture,Mr.Wachowskis,
So Tell me;why you use a Korean actor(rain) in this Japanese named movie...!!!
ok,you prefer a korean rather than a japanese actor...I did not like this choice though I accept your decision...
But Mr.Wachowskis,Why your actor RAIN explains that Ninja is not Japan culture!
did you believe that,he said 'Ninja is not japan culture',
Oh my god,
I said before,I am not japanese but I hurt so much...
I am really very angry,
Wachowski brothers know how to earn money on the Japanese culture,that is ok,but
why they could not control their actor's wrong statements!
what is this irreverence!
please,please,please
Do not touch the historical truths,
Respect the soul of Ninja,because Ninja is spirits of Japan!
and,
do not forget,Ninja is the very important part of japan culture,
there is no interest and connections between Ninja and korean culture...!
And my last words is to Mr.Rain;
'Mr.Rain,please do not speak about Japanese culture!'
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