Trainer recommends don't bother teaching old dog any tricks

[Kirie_Maiden]

Japan's canine obedience training is, well, going to the dogs, according to Sunday Mainichi (4/1).
Japan loves its dogs. According to the Pet Food Manufacturers Association of Japan, there were about 120 million dogs in this country last year.
But just because there is almost one woofer for every one of the roughly 126 million Japanese, it doesn't necessarily mean that the canines are man's best friends.
The fact that human-canine relations can occasionally be *****ly has sparked a spate of publications of dog obedience training books. The vast majority of these books take their lead from police or guide dog training techniques that emphasizes a Spartan, "cruel to be kind" approach where human owners take a heavy handed approach to training so the pooch knows who's boss.
But Japan's canine obedience training world was rocked a couple of months ago with the release of "Inu ha 'Shitsuke' de Sodateruna!" (Don't Discipline Your Dog), a Dr. Spock-like guide to raising Rover that advocates a softly softly approach to bringing up dogs. The revolutionary new book sold out completely within days of hitting the shelves, with sales helped by author Akira Hori's ripping criticism of advocates of traditional training for dogs.
Hori's main claim to fame in the canine world is that he once stayed for 500 days at a place in Nagano Prefecture called Dog Ranch, where 127 dogs are allowed to roam free in a wilderness-like environment.
Hori lived there with the dogs and his observations apparently helped him learn about training dogs. He says what he found showed that many traditional methods of training dogs are wrong.
One example of misplaced dog training, the author says, is the belief that dogs pulling on a lead when they go out on a walk is part of a power play with their masters to show who's boss.
"Poppycock," Hori tells Sunday Mainichi. "All that pulling is just the dog showing how delighted it is to be going out on a walk."
Hori also argues that puppies should be kept with their parents for longer, instead of being taken away and handed over to humans.
"Doing that causes them to lose their natural learning abilities," Hori tells Sunday Mainichi. "To get those abilities back, owners should get down on the same level as the dog and play with them, turning them into a friend they can influence into behaving properly."
http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/waiwai/news/images/20070322p2g00m0dm011000p_size6.jpg
Do we agree with this view, or should dogs be disciplined more?

[Goldiegirl]

As a veterinary technician for 8 years, I can say spoiled animals that are treated like humans caused them most injuries to everyone...including owners who have the insane idea that my beloved pet would never, ever bite me. Dogs are animals, I have one, along with 4 cats, 5 birds, 2 fish and a frog. I love animals, but they are ruled by instinct. They need to have a clear cut, black and white world. They can't deal with all of our human baggage that we pack on them. I don't hit my dog, but I can give her a hard stare and she knows immediatley that she is in trouble and goes into her corner and sits. She knows I am the boss in my house. Now that I am in Japan my mother who never scolds Lexi (the dog), now has a dog that won't stay in the yard, come when called and is charging aggresively at the neighbors. Funny when I am home she is the most docile well behaved animal. I expect nothing less of her. I don't have to scold her much, she knows what her boundaries are and I always act in the same predicatable way. She get's unpredicatable behavior from my mother and hence she is unpredictable too. Well trained animals are happier, live longer, are less likely to be given up due to destructive behaviors and are easier for Vets etc to handle. So, basically I think this approach is silly and feeds into the idea of getting your pets to love you. BTW dogs in the wild bite eachother, pick on the low dog of the pack and make there point hard and fast with their teeth...I don't want to bite my dog!

[Kirie_Maiden]

I do agree with everything you said. My dog hasn't been trained, but we do still discipline him in some ways. He instinctively knows when he has done something wrong and cowers whenever we go near him if he has done something. It is wrong not to train or discipline pets because, as you say, they might as well be wild dogs.

What do you think of the part about keeping them with their parents for longer. What kind of effect would that have on the dog?

[Goldiegirl]

Hi Kirie Maiden,

I think keeping puppies and kittens with their mothers longer does help with raising a mentally stable pet. I raised maine coon cats for 8 years and never let them leave until they were at least 10 weeks. The reasoning was simple, I didn't have to force weaning; the mom did it for me. I think that was very beneficial to their mental health as there was less stress. Too, they were litter trained, cat post trained (almost), and just ready emotionaly and physically to leave. I will say that we do force animals in an un-natural way to become our babies, if nature had its way the young would be with their moms for at least 4-6 months. I guess for me there was a trade off...take the babies away when they were still able to be trained by their new human family, but when they were as ready as they could be to leave their animal family. Animal moms are really quiet mean and aggressive in human eyes. There are no time outs and second, third chances. It's break the rules and get punished. When my mare had her foal, I was shocked to see her bite him, give a kick every once in a while...as soon as he got wild in the herd if she didn't take care of him one of the other mares did! I learned a lot from just watching the dynamics of the herd. I too did not take the foal from his mom to wean him, she weaned him by 8 months; which was basicaly 2 months longer than when people usually take the foals away. I was criticised by the other horse owners for not being tough enough to go through the separation process. I was strong, but why should the foal suffer, his mom did the work as nature intended, and I had a colt that was weaned and separated from his mom with the least amount of mental and emotional trauma. He cried, she ignored and in 2 hours he was fine. I know you asked about dogs, but I feel the same way for them, I never bred them but did work with them at the veterinary clinic. I can say that most ethical breeders did keep the pups with their moms for 8 weeks. Oh, I almost forgot, the babies get beneficial antibodies from their mothers milk which will give your baby animal a stronger and healthier immune system! Sorry, I could go on about animals for ever. I am looking at getting a puppy, I found one here in Japan...I am in "puppy love" so bad right now! He's in Hiroshima and I know if I go to see him again I'll get him! Ah...what to do!

[Elizabeth]

Well trained animals are happier, live longer, are less likely to be given up due to destructive behaviors and are easier for Vets etc to handle. So, basically I think this approach is silly and feeds into the idea of getting your pets to love you.
Ahhh, but then what about training cats ? :-) I know there are people who claim that their darling knows not only his/her name but the meaning of "no," which I would love to be able to instill in my kitties while they're still relatively young (8-9 months). Not that they would usually obey it of course.....

So I do make a point of calling each by name as I'm petting or playing with them each which seems to prompt some awareness, at least some of the time. Or maybe that is my delusion talking. I wouldn't say either is unusually clever/intelligent or particularly cat talented.

They're both fortunately extremely affectionate, however, (one even overly so) so at least one thing they do know is what it means when I pat my leg and invite them into the chair. :-)

[Goldiegirl]

Well as for training cats, it can be done. Obviuosly lions and tigers in circus acts are trained to perform. But let me say I hate those kinds of shows. Ok, back on track. It's less about training them to do something strange and more getting them to use the right behavior in the right area, at the right time. It's taking what they already know through instinct and just tweaking it to make them "fit in" to our world. My cats all know their name, and I can call them indivdually, but in the same regard I can just turn on the can opener and that's way better than a name because they are assured a treat. When I call their name there's a chance of a reward. They come faster "knowing" there will be a reward than just their name. I never call my animals by there name when I am upset with them. I want them to think of their name as a good thing, and I want them to come when called. I hate declawing, I think it's cruel and inhumane, none of my cats are declawed and yes I even have leather furniture. They don't claw the furniture to sharpen their "weapons" they use one of the 4 cat trees (scratching posts) that they know they can shred. It was simple, if they went for the furniture they were stopped and place by the cat tree and rewarded. Maybe my cats just all love food. It's about being consistent. Consistent, predictable behavior and routines from humans is the best environment for animals. IMHO! Boy don't I have a lot of opinions. What I can say is all my cats have lived to at least 18 years, my beloved dalmation Pete lived 12 years (with a major genetic illness), my rabbits to 8-9 years, my horses all into there 20's. I must be doing something right! I would say through my human eyes that all my pets have lived (are living) happy lives.

BTW Elizabeth what color are your cats and boys or girls. We had a theory on the color of cats and there personality at the clinic I worked for. I am glad that they are affectionate...they must be happy! :)

[Elizabeth]

Well as for training cats, it can be done. Obviuosly lions and tigers in circus acts are trained to perform. But let me say I hate those kinds of shows. Ok, back on track. It's less about training them to do something strange and more getting them to use the right behavior in the right area, at the right time. It's taking what they already know through instinct and just tweaking it to make them "fit in" to our world. My cats all know their name, and I can call them indivdually, but in the same regard I can just turn on the can opener and that's way better than a name because they are assured a treat. When I call their name there's a chance of a reward. They come faster "knowing" there will be a reward than just their name. I never call my animals by there name when I am upset with them. I want them to think of their name as a good thing, and I want them to come when called.
The male is a tabby and the female a torti. He's very active, sociable, easygoing, smiles constantly when playing, being petted or especially sleeping (well, not really a smile, more like a silly toothy grin) so that's probably a good hallmark of a cat being spoiled. :) She's a bit more of a loner, although the two of them get along great, so a little harder to read but definately loves getting love (licking, rubbing, nuzzling) and wondering around the computer table as I'm trying to write. Are they normal based on your stereotypes ? :p

Very sensible advice on incorporating food into the process. I was also thinking that treats like wet tuna might speak to them much more powerfully than my voice as a reward :). Appealing dishes are surely a treat any cat will work towards. Right now I only do it occasionally when I need to get them to take their medicine. Another benefit of training even basic behaviors might be to give indoor cats mental stimulation they don't not ordinarily receive as well as the comfort of a more structured environment.

The only problem behavior I have now, though, is getting the torti to enjoy being petted without feeling the need to bite (love nibbles, but I'm really afraid it shows she has an ambivilant feeling about being close to humans)...
And the chronic diarrhea, which the prescription medication isn't really
helping....

[Elizabeth]

I hate declawing, I think it's cruel and inhumane, none of my cats are declawed and yes I even have leather furniture. They don't claw the furniture to sharpen their "weapons" they use one of the 4 cat trees (scratching posts) that they know they can shred. It was simple, if they went for the furniture they were stopped and place by the cat tree and rewarded. Maybe my cats just all love food. It's about being consistent.
Yeah, I'm really happy the apartment I live in isn't furnished and doesn't require declawing. The scratching posts are sisel rope poles I've ordered as part of a cat condo. And it can't arrive soon enough ! I'm convinced cats need their own areas -- preferably a vertical space that duplicates more what they would get climbing outdoors. Not only as an activity/exercise center but also to hopefully wean them off their dependence on me....

[Goldiegirl]

Your colors and gneder match up! This is our non-scientific observations as we saw up to 20 cats a day.

Orange/Red males - Great, usually docile, friendly (80-90% of this color is male) Female orange/red - usually ok, but not as sweet as the boys.

Black or Tuxedo (black and white) - nice cats boys or girls. just a overall ok cat. They tended to be goofy, outgoing cats.

Grey/Blue - hate to say this evil. Our worst attackers and bites come from this color. Long or short hair doesn't matter. One of my cats is solid grey, they call him Sid viscous. He only likes me. He's a terror to the rest of society be it human or animal. Usually bad tempered cats, easily irritated.

Torties (always female as males can't be torties or calico need to X genes) indifferent. Moody, emotional. Not usually mean though. Still ok cat. Likes attention on their terms.

Calicos - good cat. Some have a very "important" air about themselves.

Brown Tabbys (or any hue of brown) Males are generally very sweet natured and kind the girls we're good too...

I am tired so I am sure I am missing out some of the others. Keep in mind this was just my observations while working as a vet tech. There are exceptions to everything. My wosrst bite was from a calico. I was chased by a giant red maine coon who wanted to kill me and broke through a net to get me! Only knew one nice grey cat and he was deformed so who knows...

What do ya think?

Oh, chronic diarrhea...the D word....try yogurt if your cats will eat it. Mine won't eat the all natural stuff but they love yoplait. Also you can buy lactobacillus acidophilus at the pharmacy in powder form (in a capsule), you can mix the powder in food and it works great.

[Elizabeth]

Your colors and gneder match up! This is our non-scientific observations as we saw up to 20 cats a day.
Orange/Red males - Great, usually docile, friendly (80-90% of this color is male) Female orange/red - usually ok, but not as sweet as the boys.
Actually he is orange/marmalade -- sorry I thought that was tabby. But hey, it fits even better this way. :p He's extremely suspicious of medicine from a mouth fed dropper and at times curious/distractable to a fault, but other than that an overall fabulous cat. The torti is somewhat more aloof, I wouldn't say moody, maybe more trusting, though, and with the big benefit of eating what she's given. That's worth a lot to me. Plus, the quality of her fur is impressive even to our vets, and her coloration extremely attractive. The never ending need to have her ears and stomach rubbed is the only behavior that is truly driving me nuts right now. :p

I will try the other suggestions for diarrhea. Thanks, goldiegirl ! :relief:

[Goldiegirl]

You reminded me of something....torties and red/orange cats tend to get fat! They love food. I always thought that the cartoon of Garfiled the cat was so stupid, and then I started working with cats and found that they sterotype was true...to a point. I have a chunky, tortie maine coon! Good luck with the D. It's the worst. Be sure that your vet looks for parasites, like worms, but also giardia (no matter what they say), and also clostridium. I had clostridium go through my breeding cats and it was terrible. We tested for that at last resort and it came back positive. It's not super common but is a cause of chronic D. Sorry if us cat lovers got a wee bit off topic! :)

[made of stone]

Goldiegirl, all I can say is thank you very much indeed for posting your knowledge and experiences here. We have a parrot, who at times has been a little rowdy, though he's settled down recently. I hope to begin training him properly soon, and i'll keep your wise words in mind as I do so. Cheers!

:angel:

[Elizabeth]

Oh, chronic diarrhea...the D word....try yogurt if your cats will eat it. Mine won't eat the all natural stuff but they love yoplait. Also you can buy lactobacillus acidophilus at the pharmacy in powder form (in a capsule), you can mix the powder in food and it works great.
The prescription I was given and putting on their tuna is Metronidazole, which I understand was meant to work on giardia. The diarrhea is thankfully still mild, and no other behavioral symptoms, but it has been constant since I got the male two months ago and recently seems to have worsened as well as 'spread' to the torti. Neither will eat yogurt. *sigh* I'll look for lactobacillus acidophilus. Does it have a common name ?

Not that I have the money for it now, but I wish there was a way I could just leave them at the vet one day for monitoring....:relief:

[Goldiegirl]

Nope, but if you go to any pharmacy and tell them you want the cultures that are found in yougurt they will know exactly what you mean. The great thing is that you can't overdose your cats. Metronidazole is good, it works only in the intestinal tract and works for giardia, but the dose has to be increased to get giardia. You'd have to get that info from your vet. It sounds like they are on the right track though. Also a product called calms forte works too if the D is caused my nerves and anxiety. One pill twice a day for an average 10-15 pound cat. It's made by hyland. I use it on my aggressive grey cat. It keeps him "happier" and less mean. Hope some of this helps! Hang in there! I was thinking to of coccidia...I got a stud maine coon who came with that...all the cats started with the D, but never tested positive for anything for a couple of months. Just something else to keep in the back of your mind!

[Elizabeth]

Nope, but if you go to any pharmacy and tell them you want the cultures that are found in yougurt they will know exactly what you mean.
Yep, they have bottles sold in tablet form over the counter next to the vitamins and even slightly cheaper than the Metronidazole. Wish I leave work right now and pick it up. :relief: The pharmacist also mentioned something about Pedia Lite (sp?) that you sprinkle in water that has the same effect.
As long as it isn't visible to the cats as a weird glob under their normal food
and it isn't going to stop working when they stop taking it, this should be what I'm looking for. After all, it's a compound that has been around in one form or another for centuries, right ? :-)

[Goldiegirl]

Never could get a cat to drink pedia lite...ever. They seem to notice anything strange in their water. The yogurt culture in food was never a problem...but my cats love to eat! I hope you get some good results...all my best!

[Elizabeth]

Never could get a cat to drink pedia lite...ever. They seem to notice anything strange in their water. The yogurt culture in food was never a problem...but my cats love to eat! I hope you get some good results...all my best!
I think mine would say they've have their darn food changed too many times by too many handlers and now I'm getting my revenge. You're turning me into a finicky eater for life !. :relief:

Which is where I hope the probiotic comes in....The Acidophilus tablets are 100 mg but what would you suggest as a solid daily dose ? The pharmacist recommended half a tablet daily which I did once and yet still the problem persists.

Thanks so much for your concern and knowledgable advice, goldiegirl ! Will keep you posted ! :-)

[Goldiegirl]

I gave my cats 1 capsule mixed into food twice a day...I added a third dose with a treat late at night if needed. It can take a few days for you to see an improvement. Since they are getting metronidazole, it is killing off all the bad bacteria that started the D, but it also kills the good which prevent D. So, it's can become a revolving problem! Don't ya love good news. My heart goes out to you! Please do keep me posted, I am sure your critters will be ok.

On a dog note. No, I am not getting my puppy. Well not right now anyway. I have one reserved and will get him in June when we come back to Tokyo. I am sad to leave today, but I will be back and I have a puppy to look forward too! :)

[Elizabeth]

I gave my cats 1 capsule mixed into food twice a day...I added a third dose with a treat late at night if needed. It can take a few days for you to see an improvement. Since they are getting metronidazole, it is killing off all the bad bacteria that started the D, but it also kills the good which prevent D. So, it's can become a revolving problem! Don't ya love good news. My heart goes out to you! Please do keep me posted, I am sure your critters will be ok.
On a dog note. No, I am not getting my puppy. Well not right now anyway. I have one reserved and will get him in June when we come back to Tokyo. I am sad to leave today, but I will be back and I have a puppy to look forward too! :)
Welcome home, goldiegirl ! :wave:

Yeah, they've be fine I'm sure. Especially when that cat tower gets here :).
Wow ! That should be interesting, raising a puppy in Tokyo....My b/f also wants a dog but that would mean also moving -- to a house in country. He has a condo in Tokyo that barely supports two cats in my opinion.

I don't know what started the D, but metronidazole didn't seem to be doing anything so I stopped it two days ago. I'll give the acidophilus a shot over
the weekend and see where we are again Monday. At least that isn't a drug they can OD on. :cool: :p

[Elizabeth]

I gave my cats 1 capsule mixed into food twice a day...I added a third dose with a treat late at night if needed.
You mean a capsule with each meal, in total two or three a day, right ? Mine weren't getting any better on Albon or Metronidazole so the vet basically threw up his hands and let me try over the counter Acidophilus for however long that will take. When next pay period rolls around, I will be able to afford a veterniary priobiotic if necessary. They were fine for day or two, after more deworming medication, but things have settled back into normal since then. :(