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Click Here to View the Full Version with Images: Middle Ground: Why teenage girls and middle-aged men belong together


Potemkin
01-03-2005, 08:29 PM
Middle Ground: Why teenage girls and middle-aged men belong together
by Ada Calhoun

http://www.nerve.com/personalessays/calhoun/middleground/

When I was a teenager, Frank Bascombe, the forty-year-old man at the center of Richard Ford's The Sportswriter, was my kind of guy. He's "in the deepest depths of my worst dreaminess." So was I! He feels "a swirling dreaminess." Hey, me too! The symptoms of dreaminess "can be a long-term interest in the weather, or a sustained soaring feeling," he says. And that's what I felt: a disoriented, is that all there is torpor. At fifteen, I was having a midlife crisis.
Young women and the Richard Ford brand of middle-aged men have an awful lot in common. Both are alone in a crowd, too smart for the room. Both feel trapped — by school on one hand, suburban obligation on the other. Both are uneasy with responsibility, newly unsure about what they want to do with their lives. And both confuse sex with love. In short, both are fantastically lonely. So is it any surprise that, in spite of progressive society's disapproval, they so often fantasize about — and even occasionally wind up — together?
These days, older men are not supposed to want to date young women. As we know from Demi-Ashton and Something's Gotta Give, when older women score young studs, a collective societal wink of approval is in order, while for men, the convertible and half-his-age girlfriend are signs of moral bankruptcy. Men dating women young enough to be their daughters is frowned upon. While it's hard to condone older men dating women who in fact are their daughters (Woody Allen), I absolutely defend Jack Nicholson's right to arm candy, not for his sake, but for the candy's.
Being the younger girlfriend isn't exactly a prison sentence. It typically involves travel and being fussed over. And, as a rule, that pretty, smooth-skinned young thing in the passenger seat isn't in it for cynical reasons. Sure, maybe sometimes it's about what people always say; he wants to stave off mortality with a wrinkle-free trophy, she wants money and power. But I think a lot of times their neuroses just happen to be in sync; sometimes they just get each other.
Throughout my life, I have known plenty of girls who wound up in various relationships across the intimacy spectrum with men twenty years older. Maybe it was socially awkward at times, but they didn't die and few of them felt then or feel now that they were being exploited.
Maybe if one of my thirty-year-old male friends started fraternizing with an eighteen-year-old girl, I would be scandalized, but I don't think so. In any case, I certainly wouldn't question the young lady's motives. I have smart, nice friends who would have a lot of neat stuff to teach any girl who's like I was ten years ago.
Besides, even though my friends and I fraternized with older men out of a sense of adventure or friendship rather than what people always say younger women are after — money and power — I refuse to believe that money and power are such terrible things to want. Both are in short supply when you're a teenage girl with ambition beyond the limited life to which you've been sentenced by your age. Mutual, life-improving arrangements that happen to involve one person being rich and the other being pretty certainly aren't any worse than those unglamorous couplings of similarly endowed and aged people who combine to synergistically create a perfectly healthy, fantastically boring dyad.

And healthy, boring dyads seem to be what sanctioned teen entertainment is all about. In the eighties, you had Judy Blume's training-bra classics and softcore porn like Do You Love Me, Harvey Burns? In the nineties, you had Francesca Lia Block's L.A. fairytales. Now, teen girls have Louise Rennison's books about the engagingly pouty heroine Georgia Nicolson (Angus, Thongs and Full Frontal Snogging, etc.), which, while charming, are about pretty standard stuff: fights with mom, kissing boys, feeling ugly. Then you have Sophie Kinsella's Shopaholic series, pure proto-socialite drivel about a ditz who just can't stop buying accessories on credit. From the Amazon summary: "Becky's ten-month globe-trot with hubby Luke was a shopping spree disguised as a honeymoon — heck, Becky will walk across hot coals for an aquamarine necklace…"
Girls: reading these books is a BIG MISTAKE. Not only is this soulless genre, with its "look how unsexy sex can be" posturing, way too shallow for a growing mind, it only expands the chasm between you and men. What one needs from a boyfriend or husband, at any age, is empathy and companionship, and the more Women are from Venus bullshit one indulges in, the more difficult it is to bridge the gender gap. Whenever you're setting up human relationships as a game (The Rules, He's Just Not That Into You) or a glamorous lifestyle choice wherein you dress up and spend most of your time talking with your girlfriends or your journal about how exasperated men make you (Sex and the City, Bridget Jones' Diary), you're never going to see men as fallible, mortal beings looking for understanding just like you are.
Chick-lit heroines are like the pettiest and most practical characters in a Jane Austen novel come to life, minus charm or patience. It's all frantic screwing-cute with no time for anything to steep, whereas Ford and company — they know from steeping. Everything is mystifying for these confused, angst-ridden heroes — even getting up in the morning, which is why these books stop being good reading once you hit your twenties and need to stop stewing and get on with things.

As a ten-year-old girl, my first cassette tapes were (and how this happened I'll never know): Huey Lewis, Phil Collins and Weird Al. Hipper friends quickly swooped in with Hey, I could think, at least I'm not an alcoholic with a dead bird in my closet.
Depeche Mode and the Violent Femmes, but the damage was done: from an early age, I deeply identified with the cultural output of that demographic. And after the obligatory Jane Austen and Brönte sisters phase, I got obsessed with random older male authors I found purely by chance at used bookstores (if the back cover referred to its aging hero as "tortured" my babysitting money was as good as spent):
Richard Ford, Tom Spanbauer, Joe Coomer, J. D. Salinger, Lewis Shiner, Philp K. Dick, Denis Johnson... I was smitten. I even liked Harry Crews, whose genuinely terrifying Southern Gothic books — getting tattooed when you're blackout-drunk in Alaska, accidentally killing a hawk you're trying to train, watching a cockfight — taught me everything I needed to know about the darkness of the soul. And it sure put not being invited to some cool-kids party in perspective. Hey, I may be sitting at home alone, I could think, but at least I'm not an alcoholic living in a shack in the woods with a dead bird in my closet. I just sort of wanted to date one.
As refuge from perpetually disappointing teenage boyfriends, I pined in a romantic fashion for dozens of older male authors, alive (Sam Shepard) and dead (Tolstoy). Falling for a narrator is weird It entails a curiously absorbing sensation ofwanting to simultaneously be and sleep with the person who owns the voice that's entered your head. When you already share so much intellectual bandwidth with someone, you lose yourself a little. But when your life consists of baffling social scenarios, pop quizzes, and drug experimentation, I'm not sure that's a bad thing.
Think Lost in Translation Bill Murray, in narrator form, whispering his frustrations into your ear while you stay up all night, thoroughly at sea in a twin bed in your parents' house. Is it any wonder I wanted nothing to do with the young-adult novels and feminist literature calculated to make me a well-adjusted young woman? Sure, I skimmed Possessing the Secret of Joy, but joy gets old; I was interested in other secrets — secrets like what it feels like to walk up to the door of the home where you live with your wife and children and not want to go inside.

Ultimately, I have a healthier idea of the difference between men and their books. When I interviewed Sam Shepard for New York Magazine, he did not insist we go on a road trip immediately, but instead hung up on me after a few perfectly normal questions. At nearly thirty, I'm too old for all my older men anyway. But my emotional affair with that demographic has left me less judgmental. Whenever I read a middle-aged author's overwrought piece of self-indulgent fiction, even if I don't enjoy it, I can picture my younger self reading the same story and understanding it exactly. If my husband goes through a mid-life crisis twenty years from now, I hope I'd be able to channel my teenage self and remember how to be the refuge-girlfriend rather than the wearying spouse.
The only thing The Sportswriter's Frank Bascombe said that I disagreed with was this: dreaminess when you're young is pleasurable and when you're old is not. In fact, it can be torturous for the young and pleasurable for the old; it's just a question of finding someone just as dreamy as you are to see you through. But I have no doubt that — driving around in his shiny new car, all intense longing and existential angst — Frank and I would have worked it out. n°

Potemkin
01-03-2005, 08:35 PM
http://www.west.net/~ferguson/roryc/films/dc/dc6.jpg

That's what I love about those high-school girls...I get older, they stay the same age. Yes they do.

SmartAZ
01-03-2005, 08:40 PM
The only thing a teenage girl has to offer a grown man is that she is too stupid to tell him no. Now, if the man is over 60, then she can take care of him and probably won't realize how much better off she could be until after the old geezer kicks the bucket. Now that is a win-win situation.

Uh, BTW, I qualify for one half of such a deal. Is there a young lady here who qualifies for the other half?

rb.
01-04-2005, 04:34 PM
From what I remember of my teen years, teen girls want to be noticed for their sexuality...ALL THE TIME! The age of the male doesn't seem to matter. If ever there was a stage in a woman's life where she is closest to nympho, it would be the teen years. Ok, we need to exclude pregnancy here. :D

Seriously, though. Even in my teen years, I could never imagine myself with someone so much older. Maybe 30, tops. As it was I never ventured past 2 years older than me. I just don't get the older guy thing. :confused:

booger
01-04-2005, 06:28 PM
rb :ll:

When I was a teen, 18 or 19, I married an older fella. He was 47 at the time. (Interesting that I can remember his age but not mine. :re: ) Lasted 7 years or so. It was....interesting. My current DH is the only man I've ever been involved with that is younger than me. (I've only been married twice but had lots of, um, relationships. ;) )

rb.
01-04-2005, 07:20 PM
Wow, Booger, 47? I remember thinking 26 was reeeealy old when I was 18. My boyfriend was 20. If you don't mind my asking, in general, what was the attraction?

I had a rather unpleasant experience early in life that had to do with an older man (mid 20's). I think it is for that reason that I've mostly been attracted to younger men, ranging from my own age, to my DH who's 10 years younger. Most were about 4 years younger. I have a friend, who had a worse, but similar experience. She, too, has only relationships with men her own age or younger. I think we both see age as authority, and authority as a threat to our well being. Irrational maybe, but it got me a damned good husband. :D

booger
01-04-2005, 09:40 PM
If you don't mind my asking, in general, what was the attraction?

He was intelligent, mature (well, men don't ever *really* mature :ll: but it sure beat someone my own age), wasn't attached to mommy and daddy, had some wisdom that only comes with experience, well-read, educated, etc, etc, etc. I made a good choice based on his pros. I just didn't factor in his cons and that is what caused our downfall. (And, believe me, his cons were many! :mkay:) I never was the emotional type so didn't do the usual swooning thing, just analyzed it all in a very detached manner (except for those cons. Doh!) and made what I thought was a good decision based on the information I had at the time.

Unique
01-04-2005, 10:12 PM
WOW Booger!

I married a man 9 years older than myself and the first few years people noticed....
I was like a deer in headlights! Ooh so in love.
I was 21.

My Grandmother was a Catholic who married my Grandfather, 10 years younger than herself, and he was Jewish. They lasted 52 years.

I still think older men are attractive. I even think Bush is a good looking man. Now that should get some on this board sick. :D

HeadachesAbound
01-04-2005, 10:27 PM
Age should only be a factor in a relationship if the mental maturity does not exist for both people to understand and accept what is taking place. Mental maturity also helps to balance emotional maturity and to ensure that both parties will be able to tolerate each other beyond a span of a few years.

LizardQueen
01-05-2005, 06:58 AM
I had the opposite experience as you, rb - my unpleasant experiences were with guys my own age. I found I started dating older ones - first 5 years older, then 8, then had a brief fling with one 20 years older (!) then DH who is 12 years older than me.
I had found the ones my age dreadfully immature - scared off by bright women, looking only for a quick lay, just generally boring and stupid frat boys.

Most of the time it's fine but there are definitely some issues that have/can occur - 1) kids - we weren't ready at the same time. He was and I wasn't, then I was and he refused saying he was too old. So we don't have any. 2) my potentially long widowhood - I may be looking at being alone for 20 years or more if we follow the average life spans. This may not hold as he's healthier than me and comes from one of those families where they last forever 3) generation gap - every once in awhile I will have NO idea what he's talking about as it happened before I was born.

If both parties know what they're getting into and are doing it for non-shallow reason (shallow reasons like he wants arm candy and she wants a sugar daddy tend to make it fall apart later) it can work, but there are definitely issues that come up that you don't always think of when you first get involved.

LQ/Tweak

Fartacus
01-05-2005, 08:38 AM
While channel surfing, I heard one of the recently-turned-eighteen Olsen Twins on tv the other day describe how creepy it was to have old men look at them. The other one chimed in, "Yeah, these 40-year-olds guys... ."

Fartacus
01-05-2005, 04:02 PM
Female volleyball coach charged with having sex with player

(Published Wednesday, January 5, 2005 09:49:36 AM CST)

Associated Press

RACINE, Wis. - A 22-year-old woman who was coach of a private volleyball club has been charged with having sex with one of her 16-year-old male players.

Jennifer L. Bradley of Caledonia made her initial appearance Tuesday in Racine County Circuit Court on a felony charge of sexual assault of a student by an instructional staff member and five misdemeanors.

The criminal complaint said Bradley and the boy had a sexual relationship between June 12 and Sept. 4 while she coached a private club named Next Level Volleyball for which he played.

Bradley was hired in August as an assistant girls volleyball coach at Case High School, where the boy attends school and plays volleyball.

She was suspended in September after the allegations surfaced, and has since resigned her school position, said Linda Flashinski, a spokeswoman for the Racine Unified School District.

The boy allegedly told a sheriff's investigator that he had had sex with Bradley about five or 10 times.

His mother has said her son's grades dropped from A's and B's to D's and F's and he has run away from home at least three times since being confronted about the relationship, according to the complaint.


http://janesvillegazette.com/coachsex010505.asp

Chills
01-05-2005, 04:24 PM
Mental maturity...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... I think that be a myth.

Ok I am 54... if I am interested in a 19 year old.... how come she is suddenly mentally mature... when the interest is reciprocated ..but is immature other wise.. :confused:

Not that I give 2 whacks of a hockey stick about her mental maturity to start with but..... you get my drift... :drool:

IMO It has nothing to do with mental maturity(what ever the flip that is)... has to do with compatibility...and reciprocating interest and desire.

Until I was in my 40's all my relationships were with gals in my age group give or take a year or two either way.... and the odd exceptional affair here and there with gals a bit out of the general age group....i.e. affair with gal 20 year my senior when I was in my 20's etc etc... shortterm...stuff..

Anyway... since my 40's I havent been with a woman that wasnt 15-20 yrs my junior..
not cause I dont find gals in my peer group interesting and exciting. :no: .. but most of em are taken...DRATT... :crier:

Then again those 25 yr olds are so much more mature mentally than my peers.... :devil:

SageTheRage
01-05-2005, 04:29 PM
Here's the short and perhaps not so sweet of it.. in most cases (speaking of non-commital relationships) it's simply because they're both interested in sex, sex and more sex at that age/stage of their lives! :D

rb.
01-05-2005, 04:33 PM
LQ, yeah, I know what you mean about the generation gap. With DH and I it's pretty minor, and shows up in musical tastes ( old Aerosmith for me, new for him), common cultural references (my tv memory goes back to I Love Lucy, Mission Impossible, Laugh-In, his goes back to MacGyver :D ). We could have easily had the "when to have a child" issue, as neither of us was thinking much about it. As a matter of fact, when he told his father about us, his father brought up the age/children issue. Little did his father know his first, and much loved, granddaughter was already on the way. Nature took care of that little issue for us. 10+ years later, I wouldn't change a thing.

Libertarian
01-05-2005, 06:05 PM
WOW ~snip~
I still think older men are attractive. I even think Bush is a good looking man. Now that should get some on this board sick. :D
Not me. I think that Laura Bush is a pretty good looking woman.

Potemkin
01-05-2005, 08:30 PM
Not me. I think that Laura Bush is a pretty good looking woman.

Yes, but the Bush daughters are even hotter.
http://www.cnn.com/video/politics/2001/05/31/am.bush.twins.bb.cnn.jpg

Heck the Kerry daughters are even hot.

Unique
01-05-2005, 08:37 PM
:lol: :lol:

Chills
01-05-2005, 09:03 PM
For the record.... if a middle aged man hit on my daughters before they reached their majority......
I think ... they wouldnt be middle aged too long...

If they survived... they would be wheelchair bound and singing soprano...

And that is just what my sons would have done...... :yes:

Unique
01-06-2005, 02:12 AM
Chills..

When my Dh and I went to tell my parents our plan to get married. My father said...

When I kill you will you have enough life insurance to pay for my daughters college education?

My poor Dad!

BTW I continued the college thing..

HeadachesAbound
01-07-2005, 09:04 AM
Chills

By mental maturity I mean that both persons have to be able to understand and deal with the relationship. If the interest is not reciprocated then it just means she/he didn't like you, not that your a sleeze or something. And anyone who might you consider you a sleeze...well, we've seen the pictures so we know your just an out-of-place hippy. :poke:

Potemkin
01-07-2005, 09:39 AM
For the record.... if a middle aged man hit on my daughters before they reached their majority......
I think ... they wouldnt be middle aged too long...

If they survived... they would be wheelchair bound and singing soprano...

And that is just what my sons would have done...... :yes:

I think some parents, especially most fathers, have a peoblem with their daughters "getting busy".

It is a particularly good topic at poker parties to jazz the guys who have daughters.

"Hey Joe, Jane is getting up around 15-16 right?"

"Yep."

"She is really becoming a woman. Must be all kinds of boys hanging around."

"No sh*t. They call all hours, e-mail, PM. I have have too beat them off with a stick."

"Hey Joe, remember when we were in high school and took Sally and Rosemary to the lake that night and we all drank that case of beer? We couldn't have been more that 16 then could we?"

"Shut he hell up, man."

"No really, how old were we? Man, they sure were hot and we had a good time."

"Man, I said shut the &*^% up or I will kick your &*^%!"

HAHAHA, good time. :rofl:

Fartacus
01-07-2005, 10:43 AM
I think some parents, especially most fathers, have a peoblem with their daughters "getting busy".

It is a particularly good topic at poker parties to jazz the guys who have daughters.

"Hey Joe, Jane is getting up around 15-16 right?"

"Yep."

"She is really becoming a woman. Must be all kinds of boys hanging around."

"No sh*t. They call all hours, e-mail, PM. I have have too beat them off with a stick."

"Hey Joe, remember when we were in high school and took Sally and Rosemary to the lake that night and we all drank that case of beer? We couldn't have been more that 16 then could we?"

"Shut he hell up, man."

"No really, how old were we? Man, they sure were hot and we had a good time."

"Man, I said shut the &*^% up or I will kick your &*^%!"

HAHAHA, good time. :rofl:


You, sir, are an extreme thrill seeker. Why not just jump a tank of sharks, alligators, electric eels, and a dog-paddling lion with a motorcycle next time?

Hokey
01-07-2005, 11:05 AM
Don't get started on the daughter thing! Its just not dang funny!

:no:

But its funny how differently society thinks of sex of daughters versus sons.

IMO people can be of whatever age and marry each other. Every relationship, no matter what the combination, has its issues and strains to work out. If a person marries another for one thing only - like security for a young woman versus sex for an older man - then the relationship doesn't have much of a foundation. Relationships aren't easy.

Potemkin
01-07-2005, 11:31 AM
Don't get started on the daughter thing! Its just not dang funny!

:no:

But its funny how differently society thinks of sex of daughters versus sons.


That is exactly how it works.

Daughter get busy and the parents are "disappointed" and want to kick the guy's @$$.

Son gets busy and it is "That's my boy! :tup:".

Of course, there is the just plain freaky paring that just can't be explained.

Fartacus: No worries, we are all friends.
Just a bunch of "man talk" and guys talking smack.


------
http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/waiwai/0501/0103schoolgirl.html
Septuagenarian stalker gets caned falling for schoolgirl

By Ryann Connell
Staff Writer
January 3, 2005

Schoolgirls are, without doubt, the national sex object in Japan, even for the vast majority of elderly men, one great-grandfather in particularly going to extraordinary lengths in his fascination for a high school student that showed he wasn't at all great, according to Sunday Mainichi (1/5).

"I don't know where he got the energy to follow around a high school girl, but he's totally repentant now and has offered his deepest apologies," a Kumamoto Prefectural Police officer tells Sunday Mainichi, referring to 70-year-old pensioner Kazuyoshi Takeshita, who was arrested last month for stalking a girl 52 years his junior.

Takeshita apparently fell in love at first sight of the 18-year-old Kumamoto schoolgirl he spotted one day as she was on her way to class and developed a fascination for her every move.

After some time scanning her, he finally mustered the courage to approach her and ask her name. The girl willingly offered an answer only to be shocked when the old man came back with a series of questions about her part-time job, hobbies and other intimate details.

"He'd been following her for some time before he finally talked to her," an officer from the Arao Police Station that handled the case tells Sunday Mainichi.

After they became "acquainted" Takeshita is supposed to have followed the girl everywhere, waiting for her outside her school, her workplace and even in the bicycle parking lot, where he professed her love and demanded to know why the girl almost young enough to be his great-grandchild wasn't too keen on reciprocating.

"The girl is quite a serious type and, at first, was absolutely astonished when this old geezer kept telling her how besotted he was with her," an investigation insider says. "But then, Takeshita would keep popping up in front of her in the most unexpected places, grabbed hold of her one day and frightened the living daylights out of her. She told her mother and the two of them came down to the police station to get some help."

In late November last year, cops told Takeshita that he was stalking the girl. They made him provide a written promise to leave her alone and he kept his word ... for a few weeks. When he began preying on the girl again in December, police swooped and the spry septuagenarian spent the New Year behind bars.

An expert on care for the elderly say the behavior of the never-married 70-year-old was hardly surprising.

"Love can be felt no matter how old you get," Yoshikatsu Shinozaki, managing editor of "Kaigo no Gakko," a magazine on caring for the elderly and disabled, tells Sunday Mainichi. "I'd say, for the elderly in a society where social and family ties were once strong but have now become weak, love tends to become more intense if there's ever an outlet found for it."

Libertarian
01-07-2005, 12:12 PM
FWIW, until about 100 years ago, teenage girls were married off at ages our girls are still in junior high school. We evolved looking at their blossoming bodies and seeing "ready for sex!" It is unnatural for us to not want to have sex with these young women. Add to that that they are forbidden fruit and you get the absolute fascination many men have with young women.

Since we are sentient humans and know that these young women need to finish growing and getting an education, we should be able to restrain ourselves. knowing what is right and wrong and doing when your body is screaming at you to do wrong is what being fully human is all about.

window2watcher
01-07-2005, 10:31 PM
100 years ago a girl matured alot older so that her bone growth was fully developed, thereby making pregnacy less dangerous. Today sexual maturity can begin as early as 9 and pregnancy at that age is life threatening and continues up until she is somewhere around 18. Sexual maturity and mental/emotional maturity do not travel on the same track in a female and I don't believe it does in males either.
Now, teen age girls are not mentally or emotionally mature and certainly not equiped to deal with the power differential between them and the older man.
It is a matter of brain development that simply doesn't allow for sound life altering decisions. Many older males like younger women in many instances because they are gullable. period. Love, real love and all it entails is difficult enough for two adults. The media certainly doesn't want that out there. Score on a young one seems to be the message for the men and for the girls it is "give all you've got because you are going to loose it quick" and when it is gone the men walk away disinterested if not discusted.