谁在捏造历史 ；Photos document brutality in Shanghai (ZT) 主题选项

[fanduiyaoyan]

.



先看这张图







接着看CNN报道
http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9609/23/rare.photos/index.html


（摘录）
The photos, taken by a Swiss photographer near Shanghai in 1937,
all depict the brutality of Chinese soldiers toward Japanese prisoners
and Shanghai residents accused of helping the Japanese as they began
their military conquest of China.


YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tHr5Ht711E



此主题已被 fanduiyaoyan 在 15 Mar 2007, 16:55 时间编辑过

[fanduiyaoyan]

[flying_cat]

（摘录）
The photos, taken by a Swiss photographer near Shanghai in 1937,
all depict the brutality of Chinese soldiers toward Japanese prisoners
and Shanghai residents accused of helping the Japanese as they began
their military conquest of China.

Yes, this is a flamebait. But I feel that I have to comment on this. This looks like really shoddy journalism from CNN. I don't think that the Japanese Rightists would have any moral gain even if the CNN report was true.

But let's go back to the photos. Here's two questions for you.

1) How do you recognize the identity of any Japanese prisoners?
2) Who financed John Simmen to publish it?

[fanduiyaoyan]

Yes, this is a flamebait. But I feel that I have to comment on this.
This looks like really shoddy journalism from CNN.
I don't think that the Japanese Rightists would have any moral gain even if the CNN report was true.

But let's go back to the photos. Here's two questions for you.

1) How do you recognize the identity of any Japanese prisoners?
2) Who financed John Simmen to publish it?

Thanks for your reply.
I need to answer your questions.

1) I am neither a historian nor an eyewitness, as most of Chinese students are not.
All I know is that it was a China's common way of torture.

2) John Simmen had not worked for someones propaganda.
Have you ever seen any Japanese "Rightists" mentioned about his photos?
However it is said western journalists, e.g.)Harold John Timperley, were financed by KMT.


(自 : 某Blog)

(自 : 某Blog)
照片：斬首馬賊這個網址前些時候仍有這些照片，不過最近因為其中照片被張純如的The rape of Nanking 所冒用，很多照片因政治因素已經被取走，或被中國以防火牆方式阻隔存取。

在 不少人認為我﹝否認﹞南京大屠殺，但壓根兒我們只是懷疑一些證據，照片是不能當證據的，例如張純如書中的日本人斬首圖片，竟然是來自遼寧省斬首馬賊的照 片，這種取證非常讓人不能認同，而且我只是了解在所受的教育中，若沒有相當的歷史證據，我們就相信一件事的存在是非常愚蠢的一件事，有人說歷史沒有真相， 但其實不然，所謂走過必然留下痕跡，比如楊州十日，嘉定三屠，在發生那些事件底下，人口數增減必然成為事件成立的有力證據，但歷史不能扭曲，在國民黨政府 過去的歷史教育下，沒有人會懷疑長白山上的劇情角色是否與馬賊有關，就算是有關也不能言語，否則隔夜警總抓人時，就一去再也不回頭。

[cirrus]

so what?
你想说明什么？
从来没听说前民国政府或者共和国政府否认、或者承认过虐待日本战俘的事情，这事以前就没提起过，国军更是从来就没有优待战俘的传统。
你在说谁“捏造”历史？如果有人说国军优待日本战俘，那才叫“捏造”不是？
在一个当时大部分国民可以把看杀头当乐子的国度里，发生这种事情太正常不过了，一点都不用惊讶。更何况与几十万被有组织有规模屠杀的南京军民相比，与因为抗日战争而死亡的上千万中国军民相比，这点小破事算什么？

楼上的照片是斩首马贼？拿出证据来！什么时候、什么地点、谁拍的？是日本占据东北时期的“马贼”，还是张作霖、张学良的东北军控制东北时的“马贼”？谁说他们是马贼的？是日本关东军，还是伪满政府，还是民国的东北军？是真的马贼，还是抗日的游击队被诬蔑成了马贼？

至于二楼的照片，人物B当时是在跑动中，身体是倾斜的，完全能形成这样的影子。

[fanduiyaoyan]

楼上的照片是斩首马贼？拿出证据来！什么时候、什么地点、谁拍的？

【版本说明】 印刷
【图片幅数】 1幅
【图片色彩】 黑白
【图片大小】 9.2X6.1cm
【图片出处】 辽宁省图书馆
【主题词】 处斩,公主岭,1918年以前,马贼,尸体,围观人群
http://www.lnlib.com:8080/was40/detail?rec...channelid=13751

此主题已被 fanduiyaoyan 在 18 Mar 2007, 17:53 时间编辑过

[cirrus]

谁进行处斩的？
标题用的是日文，至少说明摄影者是日本人。
那么执行斩首的是什么人呢？
1918年的时候日本在东北已经有驻军了。

[fanduiyaoyan]

1918年的时候日本在东北已经有驻军了。

"斬首馬賊這個網址前些時候仍有這些照片，不過最近因為其中照片被張純如的The rape of Nanking 所冒用"

[flying_cat]

1) How do you recognize the identity of any Japanese prisoners?

Thanks for your reply.
I need to answer your questions.

1) I am neither a historian nor an eyewitness, as most of Chinese students are not.
All I know is that it was a China's common way of torture.

You're welcome. I'd very much like to have an intellectual debate on this.

If all you wanted to say here is China had brutality in history, fair enough. I'm not denying it. Neither did Cirrus. But if you're trying to imply China the brutal nation, I'm afraid you don't really know about human history. Almost every nation on the planet had some form of brutality. The German had holocaust. The French burnt Joan Arc. The English had slave trade. The Americans cleansed Indians. The Catholic Spanish cleansed the Islamic Moors. The Christian world prosecuted the Jews and had numerous brutal witch hunts. As for the Japanese, if you go to ANY east and southeast Asian country and talk to the local elderly about WWII, you'll almost certainly hear about the Japanese atrocities. THIS IS NOT PROPAGANDA. No propaganda machine could brainwash people about the same thing on both sides of the cold war.

I once talked to an English war veteran who had served in Singapore during WWII. He's no fan of communism or the KMT, but he told me what he witnessed, i.e. the atrocities committed by Japanese army when Singapore was captured. Did he work for Chinese propagada?

These were all tragedies. The human history is full of tragedies. But perhaps the most tragic of all is that people tend to ignore the lessons from history and we see the same tragedies happening again and again, from one continent to another. Have you seen what the supposedly "morally superior" US soldiers did to Iraqi civilians? The Europe paid great price in the two world wars and these nations seemed to have learn something. That's why many European nations have laws making Holocaust denial a crime. Sadly, the Japanese Prime Minister still argues about comfort women and the Rightists' voice are still loud.

I'm not a detractor of the Japanese as a nation. But there's certainly some stubbornness in some Japanese's mind and they seem able to do ANYTHING to defend this kind of stubbornness, until total defeat. To a sensible human being, when the rest of the world are thinking the opposite, there must be something terribly wrong about his own thinking, better check with the facts and logic. The Japanese Rightists don't seem to accept that. Well, they are not alone on this. If you google "Japan Whaling", you know these are the same people, who can live on with blatant lies.

You may argue that the CCP still not accepting the truth of 1989. Well, you've got a point. It's indeed cowardness on the CCP's part unable to face the past. But I believe the Chinese people will one day rectify this. Patriotism should not make people blind and I for one will insist on finding the truth.

However, just as two wrongs don't make one right, pointing at others' mistake certainly will not make oneself innocent, although it could be a quick way to pick up a fight. No offense, but I think your logic is exactly like this:
"See the Chinese army brutally executed its prisoners in Shanghai, the Japanese Army must be innocent."

Please correct me if I was wrong. But can you see the flaw here?

I'll try to discuss the second point next time.

此主题已被 flying_cat 在 19 Mar 2007, 16:54 时间编辑过

[Phil]

严格地说，斩首示众是世界大多数民族在历史上使用频率最高的处死方式，在东方更是，所以，这张照片是否能说明是中国士兵针对日本战俘或者他们的帮手的，根本就很成问题，于是，就此基础上发表的言论，基本上属于没有意义的。

[flying_cat]

福山的文章说到了点子上。

日本的民族主义问题

● 弗朗西斯·福山

　　就任日本首相仅仅半年时间的安倍晋三已经在亚洲挑起了愤怒，并且让他国家的重要盟友美国也感到很不快。但是布什政府是否会动用其影响力劝说安倍不要再有这种使人激怒的行为呢？

　　安倍的前任小泉纯一郎是一个打破传统框架束缚的领导人。他振兴了日本的经济，改革了邮政储蓄系统，并且打破了长期执政的自民党派系体系。但是小泉也使一种新的日本民族主义合理化，他因为每年都要去参拜靖国神社而激怒了中国和韩国。如果说他们之间有什么不同的话，那么安倍只会更决心要建立一个固执己见并且绝不道歉的日本。

难以让人信服的战争说明

　　那些认为靖国神社之争，只是中国人和韩国人就一个模糊不清的历史问题纠缠住日本，从而取得政治优势的人，大概都没有在这问题上花上太多的时间。问题并不在于供奉在神社里的十二个甲级战犯，而是在于同这相邻的游就馆。

　　走过陈列在博物馆里的三菱零式舰上战斗机、坦克和机关枪，参观者会看到一段恢复了“现代日本历史真相”的太平洋战争的历史。它使用的是民族主义的论调。那就是，日本作为一个受欧洲殖民统治强国欺凌的国家，其所作所为只是为了保护其他的亚洲人民免受欺凌。比如说，日本把占用朝鲜为殖民地描述为是一种“伙伴关系”；并且你在这里不会看到关于日本军国主义在南京或马尼拉滥杀无辜的任何纪录。

　　人们也许会争辩说，这个博物馆只是多元化民主社会里某些人的一种立场而已。但是在日本，并没有其他博物馆对它在20世纪的历史提供了另一种说法。每一届的日本政府，都躲在由一个私人宗教组织运作的游就馆背后，避免对该馆的观点负起责任。

　　这是一种无法令人信服的立场。事实上，与德国不同的是，日本从未反省它在太平洋战争中的责任。尽管社会党人村山富士担任首相时，曾在1995年正式代表官方就战争问题向中国表示道歉，但是日本国内从未就日本应该承担多少责任进行过认真的讨论，也从未真心推出有别于游就馆说法的另一番说法。

　　我在1990年代早期同日本右翼打过交道，当时我和渡边素一在日本参加了两次电视讨论节目。渡边当时被我的日本发行商选为我的著作《历史的终结和最后一个人》日文版的翻译。他是日本上智大学的教授，是石原慎太郎的合作者，后者是民族主义政治人物，为《日本可以说不》的作者，现在是东京都知事。　　

　　在两次会面中，我听到他在众多观众面前解释说当关东军离开中国时，满洲国的人民是怎样热泪盈眶，他们对于日本是如何的感激不尽。在渡边看来，太平洋战争可归结为是一种种族问题，因为美国决意压制非白人人种。渡边与那些否认二战期间纳粹对犹太人大屠杀的人没什么不同。但是，同他的德国对手不同的是，他在日本可以轻易博得广大的观众，并且得到他们的认同。（我经常收到日本作者寄来的书，“解释”南京大屠杀是怎么一个巨大的骗局。）


美国应谨慎看待日本修宪建军

　　　　

　　除此以外，最近还发生好几起令人担忧的事件。例如，批评小泉参拜靖国神社的人受到了民族主义分子的暴力威胁，前首相候选人加藤弘一家就受到燃烧弹的袭击。（而另一方面，一贯保守的《读卖新闻》社长批评了小泉对靖国神社的参拜行为，并且发表了一系列令人印象深刻的讨论战争责任的文章。）

　　这让美国很为难。一些美国战略家渴望把日美安全条约向外扩大，建立一个类似北约的防御屏障来包围中国。自冷战结束后，美国一直在推动日本重新建立军队，并且公开支持日本修订战后宪法第九条，那是禁止日本拥有军队或发动战争的条文。

　　但是美国应该对自己的期望保持谨慎。美国军事基地在远东地区的合法地位，是建立在美国代替日本行使自卫主权的基础上。日本在新民族主义的背景下单方面修订宪法第九条，必将使它被几乎整个亚洲孤立。

　　修订宪法第九条一直是安倍想要做的事，但是他是否真的会付诸实施，在很大的程度上依赖于他从美国亲密朋友那里得到的建议。

　　布什总统出于对日本在伊拉克问题上的支持，而不愿对他的“好朋友小泉”就日本民族主义发表什么看法。现在日本已经撤回其派驻的少许军队，也许布什可以坦率地对安倍发表看法了。

·作者弗朗西斯·福山是约翰·霍普金斯大学国际关系高等研究学院院长和美国利益集团主席。

版权所有：Project Syndicate/美国利益集团，2007年.

文章原题：The Trouble with Japanese Nationalism

www.project-syndicate.org

http://www.zaobao.com/yl/yl070326_502.html